| grayscale vs. color [message #20111] |
Tue, 16 May 2000 00:00  |
noymer
Messages: 65
Registered: June 1999
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Member |
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Sorry if this is a stupid question. I am making some line
graphs (eps files) for a book, using IDL direct graphics.
Some of the graphs have several series and it would be nice
to use solid grey as an alternative to dot-dash-double-dot-dash-
double-dotdash or whatever for some lines.
In the past, I have always loaded a colortable and there is
always some color, not hard to find, that turns into the just
right shade of grey when it goes to the laser printer. This color
is not always "grey" --- it's whatever color prints out grey.
Trouble is, this time it's going to some imagesetter (no idea
which kind) far far away. Plus they don't want color and they'll
probably freak if they see color. I don't know what they'll say to
a grey-like-color in a color EPS file; maybe that's kosher, but isn't
there a way to have grayscale in a garden-variety B&W EPS file?
Is there a quick and dirty way to load a colortable that is
really just a grayscale? I looked in the material I had but didn't
find anything.
TIA,
-- Andrew
noymer@my-deja.com
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
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| Re: grayscale vs. color [message #20130 is a reply to message #20111] |
Mon, 22 May 2000 00:00  |
Martin Schultz
Messages: 515
Registered: August 1997
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Senior Member |
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put in a feature request for supporting the CMYK color scheme!
Apparently it doesn't happen too often that this is needed (which leads
to the question: what kind of graphics software do these hot-shots who
are writing books use?), but it is sure frustrating if, after months of
reiteration, your oh-so-beautiful plot can't be used for publication
because of -- err, yes, color handling ;=) I sure hope that Corel Draw
will be available for Linux one of these days; that could help ...
Martin
Andrew wrote:
>
> Sorry if this is a stupid question. I am making some line
> graphs (eps files) for a book, using IDL direct graphics.
> Some of the graphs have several series and it would be nice
> to use solid grey as an alternative to dot-dash-double-dot-dash-
> double-dotdash or whatever for some lines.
>
> In the past, I have always loaded a colortable and there is
> always some color, not hard to find, that turns into the just
> right shade of grey when it goes to the laser printer. This color
> is not always "grey" --- it's whatever color prints out grey.
>
> Trouble is, this time it's going to some imagesetter (no idea
> which kind) far far away. Plus they don't want color and they'll
> probably freak if they see color. I don't know what they'll say to
> a grey-like-color in a color EPS file; maybe that's kosher, but isn't
> there a way to have grayscale in a garden-variety B&W EPS file?
>
> Is there a quick and dirty way to load a colortable that is
> really just a grayscale? I looked in the material I had but didn't
> find anything.
>
> TIA,
> -- Andrew
> noymer@my-deja.com
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
--
[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[ [[[[[[[
[[ Dr. Martin Schultz Max-Planck-Institut fuer Meteorologie [[
[[ Bundesstr. 55, 20146 Hamburg [[
[[ phone: +49 40 41173-308 [[
[[ fax: +49 40 41173-298 [[
[[ martin.schultz@dkrz.de [[
[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[ [[[[[[[
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| Re: grayscale vs. color [message #20176 is a reply to message #20111] |
Wed, 24 May 2000 00:00 |
Martin Schultz
Messages: 515
Registered: August 1997
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Senior Member |
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Hi Struan,
yep! I guess that was shooting a little too fast, but the ensuing
discussion
(i.e. mostly your series of comments) put it onto the right track.
Although there may be workarounds (Liam), it still would be much
preferrable to see 24bit postscript colors produced by the postscript
driver. And I can't see a major difficulty in providing a (linearily
translated) CMYK output format in addition to RGB. True enough, RSI
should not start dealing with all these nitty details of color
adjustments etc., but I think one should be able to produce a postscript
file that you can forward to your favorite professional print shop and
they should be able to apply the necessary color corrections etc and get
the right colors out. What appals me about Photoshop, Coreldraw etc. is
that most of these are only available for Windows or Mac, so it is not
just firing up another application if you sit on a unix system. And the
learning curves are steep enough, although this is certainly also true
for color handling in general (why would there be professional graphic
studios otherwise?).
I definitively agree with you that IDL seems to lag behind its
competitors in several fundamental ways, high ranking among these is
more transparent color handling and the mapping inconsistencies. From
what I have seen from the object graphics so far, this seems a much
better implementation - so perhaps they can at some point replace all
direct graphics stuff with procedure interfaces to the object graphics
routines? I am waiting for the IDLgrMAP object ...
Yes: Let them do more important stuff!
Cheers,
Martin
Struan Gray wrote:
>
> Martin Schultz, martin.schultz@dkrz.de writes:
>
>> who says they must compete? If they can license
>> a bad editor, they should be able to license some
>> software to generate CMYK.
>
> They are competing in the sense that you're trying to make
> IDL do something that Adobe applications (among others) already
> do very well and at a cheaper price. It is only worthwhile if
> you absolutly insist that your computer only ever runs one single
> program.
>
> As I pointed out, IDL already generates perfectly
> good-looking CYMK every time it uses a colour printer driver. If
> I need more control than the printer driver allows me, any modern
> graphics or page layout program can turn out professional-quality
> seperations. If I'm publishing a book or a thesis with colour
> plates the seperations are done by the printer and I just have to
> supply my monitor profile and check a proof or two.
>
> It would be helpful to make IDL able to use colour profiles
> and to warn about out-of-gamut colours, particularly when sharing
> visualisations with other users, but I don't want a half-assed
> implementation that I then have to second guess the whole time
> and I vastly prefer that IDL stick to its knitting and fix more
> serious problems.
>
> I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm genuinely baffled as
> to why you and David feel IDL has no CYMK abilities at all, and
> what exactly you feel should be added. I'm interested to hear
> about specific problems you have had.
>
> Struan
--
[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[ [[[[[[[
[[ Dr. Martin Schultz Max-Planck-Institut fuer Meteorologie [[
[[ Bundesstr. 55, 20146 Hamburg [[
[[ phone: +49 40 41173-308 [[
[[ fax: +49 40 41173-298 [[
[[ martin.schultz@dkrz.de [[
[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[ [[[[[[[
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| Re: grayscale vs. color [message #20177 is a reply to message #20111] |
Wed, 24 May 2000 00:00 |
Struan Gray
Messages: 178
Registered: December 1995
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Senior Member |
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Andrew, noymer@my-deja.com writes:
> So every time I make a change I have to go into
> IDL _and_ into the GIMP?
Only if your monitor can't be colour calibrated in any sense
at all, which since you say "GIMP" could well be true. But then
you're going to have a very hard time generating reliable CYMK
output in any case.
I do have two displays which always seem to throw images
off-balance. They are both flat panels (a Powerbook and a SGI
1600), and I can't prep critical work on them with any program,
even those with very sophisticated CYMK implementations.
With all our cathode-ray tube monitors I am able to set them
up so that what IDL spits out of the printer is highly
predictable. With the better monitors the match is very good. I
only *need* to use Photoshop et al when dealing with off-site
printers where I want to preview the look of particular pantone
ink sets. I would be interested to know what sort of print jobs
you are doing which are simple enough in terms of page layout to
be done in IDL without driving you nuts, but sophisticated enough
in their use of colour to require seamless CYMK integration.
Colour-seperations are not rocket science, and IDL could do
them with one hand behind it's back while simultaneously playing
the fiddle and dancing the Lambada. The hard part is defining
the colour spaces you're translating to and from, and doing so
accurately enough to make overriding the printer's default
settings worth the trouble. Then making the whole thing
cross-platform adds extra headaches and you end up with a lot of
extra special-case programming which distracts from more
important problems.
We're talking about a multi-thousand dollar data analysis
program, extensively used by the world's premier remote sensing
and geophysical labs, which still has problems plotting data at
the North Pole and gets confused and upset when it tries to grasp
the concept of the International Date Line. Blocking up on
saturated greens pales into insignificance.
Struan
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| Re: grayscale vs. color [message #20191 is a reply to message #20111] |
Tue, 23 May 2000 00:00 |
Struan Gray
Messages: 178
Registered: December 1995
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Senior Member |
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David Fanning, davidf@dfanning.com writes:
> But what I would like, very much, is for the PostScript
> device to be a true 24-bit device so that 24-bit images
> could be reproduced in good CYMK colors. Now, of course,
> you have to Color_Quan 24-bit images to get PostScript
> color.
This is the sort of more fundamental issue I feel RSI should
address. The whole colour mess in general should really be
sorted out. The direct graphics colour model in particular seems
stuck in the early 80's when 8-bit colour was something new and
exciting.
It would be a real benefit to programmers if RSI made the
whole of IDL work like object graphics, with the details of
on-screen representation handled behind the scenes by default,
but with tools to interrogate the display for those that needed
to ensure that, for example, annotations and overlays really did
stand out as-plotted.
> And the other thing I could *really* use is some kind
> of decent preview image in PostScript files.
Sharing files across platforms I find that previews seem to
choke programs more than almost anything else, but I'd like the
option to have them. On systems with colour management installed
I'd also like to be able to embed a colour profile, particularly
for greyscale images I've carefully tailored to have just the
right amount of shadow or highlight detail.
I've recently installed and started programming the latest
versions of several other packages which do similar things to IDL
(Labview for instrument control, Igor for 1D graphing and
analysis). This has reminded me of all the little niggly
problems I've come to simply accept about IDL, but which are not
necessary and waste everyone's time. I still like and use IDL a
lot, but I resent having to find workarounds because RSI are too
busy implementing new gadgets to sort out longstanding problems
with the core of the program.
I feel better now.
Struan
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| Re: grayscale vs. color [message #20193 is a reply to message #20111] |
Tue, 23 May 2000 00:00 |
Liam E. Gumley
Messages: 378
Registered: January 2000
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Senior Member |
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David Fanning wrote:
> After giving this some more thought, I going to back
> off a notch and agree with Struan, sort of. :-)
>
> Perhaps CYMK support is not strictly needed. Certainly
> most of us have Photoshop. (Although, God knows that is
> another long-learning-curve piece of software!) We can
> probably get by with it or our friend, the Graphic Designer,
> who we religiously take out to lunch at least once a month.
>
> But what I would like, very much, is for the PostScript
> device to be a true 24-bit device so that 24-bit images
> could be reproduced in good CYMK colors. Now, of course,
> you have to Color_Quan 24-bit images to get PostScript
> color.
The PostScript device *does* support 24-bit images displayed with TV or
TVRD (don't forget to load the grayscale color table though). What it
can't do is draw decomposed colors, as in the following example:
plot, indgen(10), color='FF0000'XL
A workaround is to use the Printer device (which supports both 24-bit
images and decomposed colors), and select an output printer which
supports color PostScript (e.g. HP Color Laserjet PS).
Cheers,
Liam.
http://cimss.ssec.wisc.edu/~gumley
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| Re: grayscale vs. color [message #20196 is a reply to message #20111] |
Tue, 23 May 2000 00:00 |
davidf
Messages: 2866
Registered: September 1996
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Senior Member |
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Struan Gray (struan.gray@sljus.lu.se) writes:
> I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm genuinely baffled as
> to why you and David feel IDL has no CYMK abilities at all, and
> what exactly you feel should be added. I'm interested to hear
> about specific problems you have had.
After giving this some more thought, I going to back
off a notch and agree with Struan, sort of. :-)
Perhaps CYMK support is not strictly needed. Certainly
most of us have Photoshop. (Although, God knows that is
another long-learning-curve piece of software!) We can
probably get by with it or our friend, the Graphic Designer,
who we religiously take out to lunch at least once a month.
But what I would like, very much, is for the PostScript
device to be a true 24-bit device so that 24-bit images
could be reproduced in good CYMK colors. Now, of course,
you have to Color_Quan 24-bit images to get PostScript
color.
And the other thing I could *really* use is some kind
of decent preview image in PostScript files. This certainly
can't be beyond the talent at RSI and is something that would
make IDL much more acceptable to the the general user community,
who just want to get a decent plot into their report for the
boss. Yes, we can produce PostScript, use Distiller to make
a PDF file, convert that to... But, honestly. :-(
Cheers,
David
--
David Fanning, Ph.D.
Fanning Software Consulting
Phone: 970-221-0438 E-Mail: davidf@dfanning.com
Coyote's Guide to IDL Programming: http://www.dfanning.com/
Toll-Free IDL Book Orders: 1-888-461-0155
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| Re: grayscale vs. color [message #20200 is a reply to message #20111] |
Tue, 23 May 2000 00:00 |
Martin Schultz
Messages: 515
Registered: August 1997
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Senior Member |
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Struan Gray wrote:
>
> Martin Schultz, martin.schultz@dkrz.de writes:
>
>> it is sure frustrating if, after months of
>> reiteration, your oh-so-beautiful plot can't
>> be used for publication because of -- err,
>> yes, color handling ;=)
>
> What sort of problems are you running into? Out of Gamut colours?
>
> I print IDL-generated graphics on CYMK printers all the time,
> usually by including TIFFs in a layout or drawing program, or by
> making EPS files and sticking them in work-processing files. Usually
> the printer driver does a fine job of converting the colour space, but
> if I want to do it manually I just fire up Photoshop or Illustrator.
> The last thing I want is RSI wasting their programmers' time trying to
> compete with Adobe.
>
> Or am I missing something?
>
> Struan
who says they must compete? If they can license a bad editor, they
should be able
to license some software to generate CMYK. Perhaps they could save the
money for
the editor and officially use (X)Emacs instead - I still haven't
discovered 1/10th of the idlwave mode, I believe, but what I have
already seen is just great!
Martin
--
[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[ [[[[[[[
[[ Dr. Martin Schultz Max-Planck-Institut fuer Meteorologie [[
[[ Bundesstr. 55, 20146 Hamburg [[
[[ phone: +49 40 41173-308 [[
[[ fax: +49 40 41173-298 [[
[[ martin.schultz@dkrz.de [[
[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[ [[[[[[[
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| Re: grayscale vs. color [message #20222 is a reply to message #20111] |
Mon, 22 May 2000 00:00 |
davidf
Messages: 2866
Registered: September 1996
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Senior Member |
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Martin Schultz (martin.schultz@dkrz.de) writes:
> put in a feature request for supporting the CMYK color scheme!
Hear, hear!
> Apparently it doesn't happen too often that this is needed (which leads
> to the question: what kind of graphics software do these hot-shots who
> are writing books use?), but it is sure frustrating if, after months of
> reiteration, your oh-so-beautiful plot can't be used for publication
> because of -- err, yes, color handling ;=)
Uh, they use black and white, mostly. :-(
But printing technology is advancing so rapidly that
scientists must inevitably become experts in the
graphics arts arena too if we want to present our
data in the best light (as it were).
I've actually been thinking of adding some color
graphics to the Second Edition of my book. Hell,
a whole chapter on color handling and not one color
picture! It is absolutely inevitable. CMYK (and I
mean *real* CMYK, not something half-baked) would
be a welcome addition to the program library.
And it will fit in nicely with the 24-bit color
printers that are in all of our futures. Perhaps
a concerted response now will get IDL out ahead of
the curve on this one. :-)
Cheers,
David
--
David Fanning, Ph.D.
Fanning Software Consulting
Phone: 970-221-0438 E-Mail: davidf@dfanning.com
Coyote's Guide to IDL Programming: http://www.dfanning.com/
Toll-Free IDL Book Orders: 1-888-461-0155
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| Re: grayscale vs. color [message #20255 is a reply to message #20111] |
Fri, 26 May 2000 00:00 |
Struan Gray
Messages: 178
Registered: December 1995
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Senior Member |
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Andrew, noymer@my-deja.com writes:
> you in suspense
I take it that's noymerbonics for "Thank you for all the helpful
and illuminating advice, I have printed it out and will read it each
night before I go to bed in order to remind myself how little I know
and how grateful I am that people like Struan exist on this earth."
Struan
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| Re: grayscale vs. color [message #20257 is a reply to message #20111] |
Thu, 25 May 2000 00:00 |
davidf
Messages: 2866
Registered: September 1996
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Senior Member |
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Andrew (noymer@my-deja.com) writes:
>> I can't decide if you're arguing with me or asking for
>> advice. If you used complete sentences it might aid
>> communication.
>
> you in suspense
It's a minimalist thing some of the younger folks
are into. But it's a slippery path and soon leads
to nose rings and tattoos in unmentionable places.
Cheers,
David
P.S. Let's just say I happen to have a teenager
in the household. :-(
--
David Fanning, Ph.D.
Fanning Software Consulting
Phone: 970-221-0438 E-Mail: davidf@dfanning.com
Coyote's Guide to IDL Programming: http://www.dfanning.com/
Toll-Free IDL Book Orders: 1-888-461-0155
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| Re: grayscale vs. color [message #20264 is a reply to message #20111] |
Thu, 25 May 2000 00:00 |
Struan Gray
Messages: 178
Registered: December 1995
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Senior Member |
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Struan Gray, struan.gray@sljus.lu.se writes:
> Paint Shop Pro, Photoshop LE
Whoops. I forgot that Andrew is dealing with line art.
Illustrator and Freehand are the expensive solutions. Corel Draw
(ugh) sort of gets colour right, and Canvas (www.deneba.com) is a good
competitor to all at a very resonable price.
Struan
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| Re: grayscale vs. color [message #20265 is a reply to message #20111] |
Thu, 25 May 2000 00:00 |
Struan Gray
Messages: 178
Registered: December 1995
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Senior Member |
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Andrew, noymer@my-deja.com writes:
> We seem to be on different wavelengths. Or is that different
> color schemes? Anyway, check out
>
> http://www.gimp.org/
>
> and get back to me on that one, eh?
I can't decide if you're arguing with me or asking for
advice. If you used complete sentences it might aid
communication.
GIMP's colour management and CYMK capabilities are almost as
limited as IDL's. The manual is clear and helpful, but the the
program itself can't actually do much. Read the prepress part of
the manual, it explains very clearly why you're having problems
and gives solutions of varying levels of complexity and expense.
If you don't have access to any other programs to prep your
output you'll have to make a proof print locally, send it to the
printers, and tell them to match the general look or to tweak the
colour balance so that specific colours are neutral grey.
If you're working on a PC, Paint Shop Pro is highly
recommended by photopgraphers and commercial printers I know as a
cheap solution that gets colour right. A final option would be
to look around for a copy of Photoshop LE, which comes bundled
with many scanners.
Struan
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| Re: grayscale vs. color [message #20270 is a reply to message #20111] |
Wed, 24 May 2000 00:00 |
promashkin
Messages: 169
Registered: December 1999
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Senior Member |
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Struan Gray wrote:
** snip **
> Blocking up on
> saturated greens pales into insignificance.
I am sure there are users out there who would say, heck with the pole
gaps and dateline, I need my 1-variable plot to come out right. For many
of us, a toothache draws more attention than a plain crash overseas.
Cheers,
Pavel
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