| It costs how much?!!?! [message #22626] |
Thu, 30 November 2000 00:00  |
billybobsuzanne
Messages: 3
Registered: November 2000
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Junior Member |
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Wow. I have been hanging around this newsgroup reading for a little
while now and I downloaded a demo of IDL a month or two ago to
determine what IDL could do. Despite being limited to a 7 minute demo
now, I am quite impressed. I finally got around to asking RSI exactly
how much it cost... WOW. I am a meager graduate student and my
supervisor isn't too keen on paying so much money for software which he
figures I can live without... "How much??? (cough, cough, weeze) I'm
sure you can do that in Excel" were his exact words. I'd buy it
myself, but there is no way I could afford it at what they quoted me.
I looked into the 'student version' but it is far too limited to be of
much use with my *large* datasets. I guess it is back to
fortran, 'gri' and 'gnuplot' for me :(
Will the people at RSI ever come back to reality here? Their academic
prices are simply too high (a few hundred dollars perhaps) but what
they are asking is crazy. I would have thought that us
engineering/physics graduate students are the people that RSI would
target sales for! In a few years, I'll be in industry making decisions
about software purchases... too bad they don't realize this...
Bill
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22675 is a reply to message #22626] |
Wed, 06 December 2000 00:00  |
Pavel A. Romashkin
Messages: 531
Registered: November 2000
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Senior Member |
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Kenneth Mankoff wrote:
> And if it were open source, us linux-using students who like to hack
> things apart and put them together in our spare time would turn out some
> mean routines to improve the product. This theoretical free open-source
> student IDL (wow, aren't i in a daydream) would probably have openGL, GUI
> builders, ports to Palm Vx OS, entire libraries of extensions, etc., all
> within a few months..
The only downside I am envisioning in this daydream is that then nobody
will be compatible with each other. I use Build 20.6.1a-1, David is on
21.3.4b, and Craig is on the legacy RSI one. More of a nightmare than
daydream :-(
Pavel
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22678 is a reply to message #22626] |
Wed, 06 December 2000 00:00 |
Kenneth Mankoff
Messages: 42
Registered: August 1999
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Member |
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On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, David Fanning wrote:
> Kenneth Mankoff (mankoff@lasp.colorado.edu) writes:
>> And if it were open source, us linux-using students who like to hack
>> things apart and put them together in our spare time would turn out some
>> mean routines to improve the product. This theoretical free open-source
>> student IDL (wow, aren't i in a daydream) would probably have openGL, GUI
>> builders, ports to Palm Vx OS, entire libraries of extensions, etc., all
>> within a few months..
>
> How about I bring my computer up to Boulder tonight.
> And while I'm watching the CSU Lady Rams destroy the
> CU Lady Buffalos (no, really, that's what these teams
> are called) you can install Linux on my system. :-)
>
Its a date. I would scare how fast i would have linux up and running for
you. :)
This is only because a year ago, when i tried RH5.2, it took ten days to
install, and a week to get X running. 6.0 took a day to have the whole
system up. 6.2 took four hours. 7.0 took fourty-five minutes. And no, its
not my cdroms, busses, and processors that are speeding up, its the
software, ease-of-use, and (most of all) my personal knowledge-base.
And anyways my claim that "free is better" never said anything about "free
is easier". hahaha... Think of it like your little obscure programming
club. We wouldn't want *anyone* to be able to install it, because then it
wouldn't be an obscure obtuse difficult-to-join-yet-fun-once-your-in club!
-k.
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22680 is a reply to message #22626] |
Wed, 06 December 2000 00:00 |
davidf
Messages: 2866
Registered: September 1996
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Senior Member |
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Kenneth Mankoff (mankoff@lasp.colorado.edu) writes:
> And if it were open source, us linux-using students who like to hack
> things apart and put them together in our spare time would turn out some
> mean routines to improve the product. This theoretical free open-source
> student IDL (wow, aren't i in a daydream) would probably have openGL, GUI
> builders, ports to Palm Vx OS, entire libraries of extensions, etc., all
> within a few months..
How about I bring my computer up to Boulder tonight.
And while I'm watching the CSU Lady Rams destroy the
CU Lady Buffalos (no, really, that's what these teams
are called) you can install Linux on my system. :-)
Cheers,
David
--
David Fanning, Ph.D.
Fanning Software Consulting
Phone: 970-221-0438 E-Mail: davidf@dfanning.com
Coyote's Guide to IDL Programming: http://www.dfanning.com/
Toll-Free IDL Book Orders: 1-888-461-0155
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22681 is a reply to message #22626] |
Wed, 06 December 2000 00:00 |
davidf
Messages: 2866
Registered: September 1996
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Senior Member |
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Kenneth Mankoff (mankoff@lasp.colorado.edu) writes:
> i think the linux/unix open source school would very much disagree with
> "free is not worth much". Free can be better.
I wish I could agree with you, but after spending
five frustrating days getting nowhere with a Linux install,
I'm not so sure Linux is ready to take over the world. :-(
Granted, I'm an idiot when it comes to this, but not
a *complete* idiot. Here are the directions for getting
my Linux computer to see my other computers:
Page 349: Connecting to Windows Computers
When your computer is connected to a network, Samba
Client lets you share files. For information about
using Samba Client software, see page 156.
Page 156:
You must configure Samba Client so you can share
directories with Windows systems. For information
about using Samba Client software, see page 349.
Does anyone else see a problem here!? :-(
Cheers,
David
--
David Fanning, Ph.D.
Fanning Software Consulting
Phone: 970-221-0438 E-Mail: davidf@dfanning.com
Coyote's Guide to IDL Programming: http://www.dfanning.com/
Toll-Free IDL Book Orders: 1-888-461-0155
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22684 is a reply to message #22626] |
Wed, 06 December 2000 00:00 |
Randall Skelton
Messages: 169
Registered: October 2000
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Senior Member |
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I found this on the PV-WAVE web site... I have never used PV-Wave but I
did a little reading last night on the common ancestry between RSI and
VNI.
-- FROM VNI WEB SITE --
Qualified students can now purchase fully functional versions of PV-WAVE,
the IMSL C Numerical Library, or the IMSL Fortran 90 MP Library for only
$99.00 each, plus shipping & handling, a savings of approximately
$1,400.00 on PV-WAVE and $550.00 on the IMSL products.
To order, Print and complete this form then fax it to
713-781-9260.
To qualify, the buyer must have a valid student identification card from a
college or university that has a current campus-wide or department license
for any Visual Numerics' product. The student editions of the software are
available for personal computers running Windows 95/98/NT or Linux.
---
(Unfortunately, my university used IDL not VNI... but I think that I will
pursue this a little further!)
MORE INFO AT: http://www.vni.com/education/student_offer.html
Randall
On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, Kenneth Mankoff wrote:
> Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 00:43:21 -0600
> From: Kenneth Mankoff <mankoff@lasp.colorado.edu>
> Newsgroups: comp.lang.idl-pvwave
> Subject: Re: It costs how much?!!?!
>
>
> On Tue, 5 Dec 2000, David Fanning wrote:
>> I think the impression most people have is that if someone is giving
>> something away, it's not worth much. I do think it makes sense though to
>> charge a reasonable price for students. (I'm thinking something in the
>> range of $200, which seems to be the going academic pricing if people
>> can get it together enough to order a site license. That seems fair to
>> me, given what you can do with IDL.)
>
> i think the linux/unix open source school would very much disagree with
> "free is not worth much". Free can be better.
>
> And if it were open source, us linux-using students who like to hack
> things apart and put them together in our spare time would turn out some
> mean routines to improve the product. This theoretical free open-source
> student IDL (wow, aren't i in a daydream) would probably have openGL, GUI
> builders, ports to Palm Vx OS, entire libraries of extensions, etc., all
> within a few months..
>
>
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22686 is a reply to message #22626] |
Tue, 05 December 2000 22:43 |
Kenneth Mankoff
Messages: 42
Registered: August 1999
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Member |
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On Tue, 5 Dec 2000, David Fanning wrote:
> I think the impression most people have is that if someone is giving
> something away, it's not worth much. I do think it makes sense though to
> charge a reasonable price for students. (I'm thinking something in the
> range of $200, which seems to be the going academic pricing if people
> can get it together enough to order a site license. That seems fair to
> me, given what you can do with IDL.)
i think the linux/unix open source school would very much disagree with
"free is not worth much". Free can be better.
And if it were open source, us linux-using students who like to hack
things apart and put them together in our spare time would turn out some
mean routines to improve the product. This theoretical free open-source
student IDL (wow, aren't i in a daydream) would probably have openGL, GUI
builders, ports to Palm Vx OS, entire libraries of extensions, etc., all
within a few months..
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22688 is a reply to message #22626] |
Tue, 05 December 2000 19:54 |
Nick Bower
Messages: 43
Registered: June 1999
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Member |
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>> Bill - if you're a linux user, you may try PyDL (plug).
>>
>> http://nickbower.com/computer/pydl/
>
> This looked very promising until I found that the library (DSLIN) you
> built all the graphics around is propriatary and without source. Free
> for linux (yes) but the binary is built for your system (i.e. me with
> solaris x86 and linuxPPC machines is out of luck) ... too bad, like I
> said, it looked very promising. There is no way you can build around a
> GNU graphics library?
a good point. as Paul said, PyDL was developed in <4 weeks as proof of
concept for a physics department presentation. This precluded any sort of
DIY interfaces to existing C plotting libraries. I would like to move over
to a free alternative, and have been reccommended to use a GTK option.
I'll look at this more after I submit my thesis in 8 weeks.
> One final note, to those who commented about RSI not being interested in
> marketing or selling to graduate students... That is a very poor
> marketing practice! People are creatures of habit. If you get all of
> the physics graduate students using IDL, then you will have 90% of them
> going out to industry and purchasing IDL.
I don't think this always applies. If you move to any sort of large
industry with in-house processing software, you'll probably be using that.
I went to the SSEC, I used IDL. I go somewhere else, I'll use whatever
they use there to take advantage of the existing code-base.
nick
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22695 is a reply to message #22626] |
Tue, 05 December 2000 00:00 |
Bruce Bowler
Messages: 128
Registered: September 1998
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Senior Member |
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For me, idl 5.2.1 would be fine, but I can't believe anyone here is
-really- advocating theft (which is what it would amount to if I, or
anyone else used a 5.2.1 installation key that I didn't pay for).
I use IDL at work (but don't have enough time to sit down and -really-
learn it) on a Sun, the license is, for $ reasons, node-locked, single
user. I have either a desktop or laptop at my disposal at home running
W98. I don't see a way that I can use the home/work license given that
a) there's no way (that I've seen) to dongle the sun (and it has an app
that runs at 2 every morning anyway) so I couldn't take it if I wanted
to and
b) I don't do dongles.
I've said it before and I'll say it again... RSI/Kodak ought to GIVE
AWAY the student version. There is no better way to get penetration
into the workplace than to have new hires experienced in using your
product. There's no better way to get students to use a product than to
GIVE it to them.
(it wouldn't help be as I'm not a student, but I still think they ought
to do it.)
dmarshall@ivory.trentu.ca wrote:
>
> Of course if you don't mind sticking to IDL5.2.1 you can use the bootleg
> installation number, site notice and s/n floating around.
>
> Dave.
> Its probably going to get warm in here.
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22702 is a reply to message #22626] |
Tue, 05 December 2000 00:00 |
LC's No-Spam Newsread
Messages: 18
Registered: September 1997
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Junior Member |
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On Mon, 4 Dec 2000, Mark Rivers wrote:
> Unix $200 per machine
In Italy the cost of a maintenance contract for a Unix floating license
is 375 euro (included 35% academic discount), about double than that.
> This would include maintenance and upgrades through the year 2001 (and yes,
We are not particularly interested in upgrades (whether they are
introduction of new bells and whistles, or dropping useful features like
the GIF creation in 5.4, my colleagues refused to have 5.4 installed),
we would be interested in bugfixes, but haven't really seen a serious
bug in IDL.
Concerning "maintenance" that essentially means the right to receive a
new license file in the eventuality we junk the old license server
machine. Just done that (on current year contract :-) ).
> I think these are very reasonable rates.
Considered the above, I'd regard them as quite high. I'm not sure we'll
renew a contract for 8 licenses, or freeze them.
I would be more in favour of a "per usage" accounting. You pay a lump
sum, get a license file for so many hours of CPU usage (not connection,
of course), get a warning when you have used 90%, and at that time ask
for a new offer, and place a new order.
--
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
nospam@ifctr.mi.cnr.it is a newsreading account used by more persons to
avoid unwanted spam. Any mail returning to this address will be rejected.
Users can disclose their e-mail address in the article if they wish so.
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22703 is a reply to message #22626] |
Tue, 05 December 2000 00:00 |
Randall Skelton
Messages: 169
Registered: October 2000
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Senior Member |
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Both Paul and Nigel have some good points :)
>> In the past, whenever I asked FPS (the previous supplier of IDL in the
>> UK)
>> for a temporary license to use IDL away from our license manager there
>> was
>> never a problem. All they ever asked was how long I required it for.
>> I haven't tried again since they became RSI (UK) but I would hope the
>> situation hasn't changed.
>
> I have done similar here. All it took was a call to RSI (after
> suitable verification of who and where I was), you run genver (or
> something similarly named), tell them the number it generates, they
> give you another number, you type it in and voila, you have 180 days
> of network free IDL usage.
>
> Actually, my desktop machine is running in that mode right now to
> allow me to run more than one incarnation of IDL 5.4. The RSI Tech
> Support bods were right on it and got me going in no time.
These are good points... I suppose that I should directly ask RSI if they
are willing to give me a temporary license. I did send a rather detailed
message to RSI a few weeks back explaining my predicament and nobody
*offered* to release a temporary license to me. One problem is that I am
not the sysadmin here and have no idea how IDL is licensed in our
department. I'll look into that though!
> ... For the same functionality, IDL and Matlab are similarly priced
> (academic and site license deals notwithstanding).
Agreed. I took another look at the pricing, and if you need all the
modules and functions in MATLAB then the price climbs. The academic
pricing of MATLAB still remains lower than that of IDL for a single
license.
After 3 months of programming with IDL I am getting quite comfortable with
it and I will no doubt continue using it! Now if only they made a copy of
IDL for LinuxPPC... then I'd buy a license for sure :)
Cheers,
Randall
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22707 is a reply to message #22626] |
Tue, 05 December 2000 00:00 |
Paul van Delst
Messages: 364
Registered: March 1997
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Senior Member |
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Nigel Wade wrote:
>
> Randall Skelton wrote:
>>
>> Bill's message seems points to a growing trend which RSI had best be
>> concerned about-- IDL is not the only programming tool available these
>> days: Wavemetrics IGOR, Mathworks MATLAB, and a few others are all
>> gaining ground and cost a fraction of what RSI charges for IDL!
>>
>> If I didn't have access to a department site license for IDL I'd never
>> have begun using it. As a grad student myself I am all for RSI reducing
>> the cost of single licenses to students! I own a laptop which I take with
>> me on 'vacations' and field experiments and it is frustrating not to be
>> able to 'show off' my IDL plots at conferences or simply display my
>> results on the road. Forget about the 'crippled version' though, I
>> develop both in C and IDL and it is essential that I can use both of these
>> tools together on my desktop computer and my laptop.
>
> Have you tried asking?
>
> In the past, whenever I asked FPS (the previous supplier of IDL in the
> UK)
> for a temporary license to use IDL away from our license manager there
> was
> never a problem. All they ever asked was how long I required it for.
> I haven't tried again since they became RSI (UK) but I would hope the
> situation hasn't changed.
I have done similar here. All it took was a call to RSI (after suitable verification of who and
where I was), you run genver (or something similarly named), tell them the number it generates, they
give you another number, you type it in and voila, you have 180 days of network free IDL usage.
Actually, my desktop machine is running in that mode right now to allow me to run more than one
incarnation of IDL 5.4. The RSI Tech Support bods were right on it and got me going in no time.
>>
>> I know people have been promoting the use of Matlab around my department
>> as well. By coincidence, I contacted the Mathworks sales department about
>> a single license for my laptop... Simply put: I need to be able to plot
>> results in the field and the cost of IDL is prohibitive. I contacted RSI
>> also and I've been told there will be an announcement early in the new
>> year regarding OS support and pricing. I'll give them until the
>> end of February.
>
> Are you sure your laptop can take enough memory to run MATLAB?
Ha ha. I know of a certain rather large system (i.e. gobs and diskspace and even more ram) that is
being hamstrung (sometimes) by users doing just about everything in matlab - all at once. I'm not
familiar at all with the way matlab works but it does seem to require an awful lot of memory.
> Also, don't forget to add in the extra cost of each of the additional
> toolboxes MATLAB requires to make it a usable product.
Yep. For the same functionality, IDL and Matlab are similarly priced (academic and site license
deals notwithstanding).
> Nigel Wade, System Administrator, Space Plasma Physics Group,
Wow. Space Plasma Physics. Cool.
paulv
--
Paul van Delst Ph: (301) 763-8000 x7274
CIMSS @ NOAA/NCEP Fax: (301) 763-8545
Rm.207, 5200 Auth Rd. Email: pvandelst@ncep.noaa.gov
Camp Springs MD 20746
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22712 is a reply to message #22626] |
Tue, 05 December 2000 00:00 |
Nigel Wade
Messages: 286
Registered: March 1998
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Senior Member |
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Randall Skelton wrote:
>
> Bill's message seems points to a growing trend which RSI had best be
> concerned about-- IDL is not the only programming tool available these
> days: Wavemetrics IGOR, Mathworks MATLAB, and a few others are all
> gaining ground and cost a fraction of what RSI charges for IDL!
>
> If I didn't have access to a department site license for IDL I'd never
> have begun using it. As a grad student myself I am all for RSI reducing
> the cost of single licenses to students! I own a laptop which I take with
> me on 'vacations' and field experiments and it is frustrating not to be
> able to 'show off' my IDL plots at conferences or simply display my
> results on the road. Forget about the 'crippled version' though, I
> develop both in C and IDL and it is essential that I can use both of these
> tools together on my desktop computer and my laptop.
Have you tried asking?
In the past, whenever I asked FPS (the previous supplier of IDL in the
UK)
for a temporary license to use IDL away from our license manager there
was
never a problem. All they ever asked was how long I required it for.
I haven't tried again since they became RSI (UK) but I would hope the
situation hasn't changed.
I once asked Cambridge Control (who used to supply MATLAB) the same
question
and got a very different answer.
If you have a site license you should be able to get an individual
license
for your laptop anyway.
>
> I know people have been promoting the use of Matlab around my department
> as well. By coincidence, I contacted the Mathworks sales department about
> a single license for my laptop... Simply put: I need to be able to plot
> results in the field and the cost of IDL is prohibitive. I contacted RSI
> also and I've been told there will be an announcement early in the new
> year regarding OS support and pricing. I'll give them until the
> end of February.
Are you sure your laptop can take enough memory to run MATLAB?
Also, don't forget to add in the extra cost of each of the additional
toolboxes MATLAB requires to make it a usable product.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Nigel Wade, System Administrator, Space Plasma Physics Group,
University of Leicester, Leicester, LE1 7RH, UK
E-mail : nmw@ion.le.ac.uk
Phone : +44 (0)116 2523568, Fax : +44 (0)116 2523555
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22723 is a reply to message #22626] |
Mon, 04 December 2000 00:00 |
Paul van Delst
Messages: 364
Registered: March 1997
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Senior Member |
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Randall Skelton wrote:
>
> Bill's message seems points to a growing trend which RSI had best be
> concerned about-- IDL is not the only programming tool available these
> days: Wavemetrics IGOR, Mathworks MATLAB, and a few others are all
> gaining ground and cost a fraction of what RSI charges for IDL!
I'm not convinced of that. Way back when, when a number of my colleagues looked into the IDL vs.
Matlab thing based on cost and functionality. On the face of it, Matlab appeared less expensive but
when you added all the toolboxes and whatnot to get the same functionality, they came out about the
same in cost/function. And, at the time, I felt that IDL produced superior output (plots and images
and such).
Regardless, I've resigned myself to reproducing functionality that I need in code that I control. So
as the years go by, my little collection of platform independent (and free) code will grow until I'm
self sufficient. Until then I have IDL.
> Does anyone use GKS anymore?
Never heard of it
paulv
--
Paul van Delst Ph: (301) 763-8000 x7274
CIMSS @ NOAA/NCEP Fax: (301) 763-8545
Rm.207, 5200 Auth Rd. Email: pvandelst@ncep.noaa.gov
Camp Springs MD 20746
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22732 is a reply to message #22626] |
Mon, 04 December 2000 00:00 |
Randall Skelton
Messages: 169
Registered: October 2000
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Senior Member |
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Bill's message seems points to a growing trend which RSI had best be
concerned about-- IDL is not the only programming tool available these
days: Wavemetrics IGOR, Mathworks MATLAB, and a few others are all
gaining ground and cost a fraction of what RSI charges for IDL!
If I didn't have access to a department site license for IDL I'd never
have begun using it. As a grad student myself I am all for RSI reducing
the cost of single licenses to students! I own a laptop which I take with
me on 'vacations' and field experiments and it is frustrating not to be
able to 'show off' my IDL plots at conferences or simply display my
results on the road. Forget about the 'crippled version' though, I
develop both in C and IDL and it is essential that I can use both of these
tools together on my desktop computer and my laptop.
I know people have been promoting the use of Matlab around my department
as well. By coincidence, I contacted the Mathworks sales department about
a single license for my laptop... Simply put: I need to be able to plot
results in the field and the cost of IDL is prohibitive. I contacted RSI
also and I've been told there will be an announcement early in the new
year regarding OS support and pricing. I'll give them until the
end of February.
One last thought:
Does anyone use GKS anymore? (GKS = 'Graphic Kernel Systems' which was
widely used at NASA and other atmospheric research labs for visualization
about 5-10 years ago). They had an equally nasty software license which
cost about the same as IDL and was node-locked, single-machine,
os-dependent, etc. Could this be the fate of IDL?
I wonder if there are any people from RSI-Kodak who are reading this
newsgroup?
Randall
>> One final note, to those who commented about RSI not being interested in
>> marketing or selling to graduate students... That is a very poor
>> marketing practice! People are creatures of habit. If you get all of
>> the physics graduate students using IDL, then you will have 90% of them
>> going out to industry and purchasing IDL. On the contrary, why on earth
>> would I go out and buy IDL in my new job if I had never used it and
>> wasn't familiar with it? We have a matlab licesnse available at school
>> and I have switched to it... the license is much more flexable and the
>> people at MathWorks are quite keen to have graduate students using thier
>> products (i.e. personal use student licenses of non-crippled software
>> are not $1000 CDN).
>
> Oh man, have I seen that before. Back where I used to work, every student workstation had
> Matlab on it and now some of those students are working there. And guess what they use?
> Unfortunately, Matlab has become more of a crutch than a tool for building/prototyping
> production software. Oh well. (That's not to say the same thing couldn't happen with
> non-judicious use of IDL).
>
> It seems - to me at least - that the licensing terms for IDL site licenses change often
> enough to elicite sighs of frustration from those who oversee then. The TC (tech
> computing) people back at the old job are now encouraging people to switch to (or start
> with) Matlab because they've had jack of dealing with IDL licensing (e.g. I asked if my
> laptop IDL 5.4 license was available and was asked "When you going to change to Matlab.
> It seems to be all the rage." and then told "We just ordered a pretty good package for
> matlab. We were able to purchase a department license, and a group of offsite licenses.")
> It seems Mathworks provides more flexible alternatives that allows the TC crowd to do TC
> stuff rather than chase around who's got what license and is it covered under this or that
> site agreement.
>
> Sheesh.
>
> Morning winge over. Sorry. Off for coffee.....
>
> paulv
>
> --
> Paul van Delst Ph: (301) 763-8000 x7274
> CIMSS @ NOAA/NCEP Fax: (301) 763-8545
> Rm.207, 5200 Auth Rd. Email: pvandelst@ncep.noaa.gov
> Camp Springs MD 20746
>
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22737 is a reply to message #22626] |
Mon, 04 December 2000 00:00 |
Paul van Delst
Messages: 364
Registered: March 1997
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Senior Member |
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Bill wrote:
>
> Nick Bower <bowern@ses.curtin.edu.au> wrote:
>> Bill - if you're a linux user, you may try PyDL (plug).
>>
>> http://nickbower.com/computer/pydl/
>
> This looked very promising until I found that the library (DSLIN) you
> built all the graphics around is propriatary and without source. Free
> for linux (yes) but the binary is built for your system (i.e. me with
> solaris x86 and linuxPPC machines is out of luck) ... too bad, like I
> said, it looked very promising. There is no way you can build around a
> GNU graphics library?
Well, Nick? Get on to it! :o) Considering the future Dr. Bower put PYDL together in about
a month (or less) while writing his thesis, it would probably be easy for him to do
this... :o)
> One final note, to those who commented about RSI not being interested in
> marketing or selling to graduate students... That is a very poor
> marketing practice! People are creatures of habit. If you get all of
> the physics graduate students using IDL, then you will have 90% of them
> going out to industry and purchasing IDL. On the contrary, why on earth
> would I go out and buy IDL in my new job if I had never used it and
> wasn't familiar with it? We have a matlab licesnse available at school
> and I have switched to it... the license is much more flexable and the
> people at MathWorks are quite keen to have graduate students using thier
> products (i.e. personal use student licenses of non-crippled software
> are not $1000 CDN).
Oh man, have I seen that before. Back where I used to work, every student workstation had
Matlab on it and now some of those students are working there. And guess what they use?
Unfortunately, Matlab has become more of a crutch than a tool for building/prototyping
production software. Oh well. (That's not to say the same thing couldn't happen with
non-judicious use of IDL).
It seems - to me at least - that the licensing terms for IDL site licenses change often
enough to elicite sighs of frustration from those who oversee then. The TC (tech
computing) people back at the old job are now encouraging people to switch to (or start
with) Matlab because they've had jack of dealing with IDL licensing (e.g. I asked if my
laptop IDL 5.4 license was available and was asked "When you going to change to Matlab.
It seems to be all the rage." and then told "We just ordered a pretty good package for
matlab. We were able to purchase a department license, and a group of offsite licenses.")
It seems Mathworks provides more flexible alternatives that allows the TC crowd to do TC
stuff rather than chase around who's got what license and is it covered under this or that
site agreement.
Sheesh.
Morning winge over. Sorry. Off for coffee.....
paulv
--
Paul van Delst Ph: (301) 763-8000 x7274
CIMSS @ NOAA/NCEP Fax: (301) 763-8545
Rm.207, 5200 Auth Rd. Email: pvandelst@ncep.noaa.gov
Camp Springs MD 20746
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22741 is a reply to message #22626] |
Sun, 03 December 2000 00:00 |
billybobsuzanne
Messages: 3
Registered: November 2000
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Junior Member |
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Nick Bower <bowern@ses.curtin.edu.au> wrote:
> i received word from IDL product manager some time ago that as of 5.4,
> were giving the student version the ass. As they should - array size
> limitation. hoh! Instead, an "academic" version for US$495 would be
> introduced. Of course this is still out of reach for grad students in
> say, Australia, where this translates to AUD$950 ...
I have heard similar things about RSI dropping the 'student' version and
making a 'real' version available at a discount... It still works out to
be $1000 cdn which is 1/2 the price, but still too much money for me :(
> Bill - if you're a linux user, you may try PyDL (plug).
>
> http://nickbower.com/computer/pydl/
This looked very promising until I found that the library (DSLIN) you
built all the graphics around is propriatary and without source. Free
for linux (yes) but the binary is built for your system (i.e. me with
solaris x86 and linuxPPC machines is out of luck) ... too bad, like I
said, it looked very promising. There is no way you can build around a
GNU graphics library?
One final note, to those who commented about RSI not being interested in
marketing or selling to graduate students... That is a very poor
marketing practice! People are creatures of habit. If you get all of
the physics graduate students using IDL, then you will have 90% of them
going out to industry and purchasing IDL. On the contrary, why on earth
would I go out and buy IDL in my new job if I had never used it and
wasn't familiar with it? We have a matlab licesnse available at school
and I have switched to it... the license is much more flexable and the
people at MathWorks are quite keen to have graduate students using thier
products (i.e. personal use student licenses of non-crippled software
are not $1000 CDN).
While long term contracts with government labs and other *large*
corporations will keep RSI-Kodak around for now, someone had best take
notice that only a few graduate students are learning and using IDL
these days. We are the next genearation and our turn is coming.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22767 is a reply to message #22626] |
Fri, 01 December 2000 00:00 |
Nick Bower
Messages: 43
Registered: June 1999
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Member |
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i received word from IDL product manager some time ago that as of 5.4, RSI
were giving the student version the ass. As they should - array size
limitation. hoh! Instead, an "academic" version for US$495 would be
introduced. Of course this is still out of reach for grad students in
say, Australia, where this translates to AUD$950 on account of investor
obsession with US markets.
Bill - if you're a linux user, you may try PyDL (plug).
http://nickbower.com/computer/pydl/
billybobsuzanne@my-deja.com wrote:
> Wow. I have been hanging around this newsgroup reading for a little
> while now and I downloaded a demo of IDL a month or two ago to
> determine what IDL could do. Despite being limited to a 7 minute demo
> now, I am quite impressed. I finally got around to asking RSI exactly
> how much it cost... WOW. I am a meager graduate student and my
> supervisor isn't too keen on paying so much money for software which he
> figures I can live without... "How much??? (cough, cough, weeze) I'm
> sure you can do that in Excel" were his exact words. I'd buy it
> myself, but there is no way I could afford it at what they quoted me.
> I looked into the 'student version' but it is far too limited to be of
> much use with my *large* datasets. I guess it is back to
> fortran, 'gri' and 'gnuplot' for me :(
>
> Will the people at RSI ever come back to reality here? Their academic
> prices are simply too high (a few hundred dollars perhaps) but what
> they are asking is crazy. I would have thought that us
> engineering/physics graduate students are the people that RSI would
> target sales for! In a few years, I'll be in industry making decisions
> about software purchases... too bad they don't realize this...
>
> Bill
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22769 is a reply to message #22626] |
Thu, 30 November 2000 00:00 |
davidf
Messages: 2866
Registered: September 1996
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Senior Member |
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Pavel A. Romashkin (pavel.romashkin@noaa.gov) writes:
> "J.D. Smith" wrote:
>>
>> but at
>> least all of the plotting, visualization, etc. is there.
>
> I must confess that these items are the ones of the least appeal to me
> personally, despite that I like IDL more than any other tool I use. For
> displaying purposes (other than large images), there are much better,
> interactive programs, Igor Pro not being the last.
I just wanted to make clear that I use IDL
exclusively when preparing graphics displays
for publication. :-)
Cheers,
David
P.S. Well, at least if I don't care if I *see* the
graphic in my document. If I *do* care, I just add
a preview image in any other graphics application I
have hanging around. :-)
--
David Fanning, Ph.D.
Fanning Software Consulting
Phone: 970-221-0438 E-Mail: davidf@dfanning.com
Coyote's Guide to IDL Programming: http://www.dfanning.com/
Toll-Free IDL Book Orders: 1-888-461-0155
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22774 is a reply to message #22626] |
Thu, 30 November 2000 00:00 |
John-David T. Smith
Messages: 384
Registered: January 2000
|
Senior Member |
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billybobsuzanne@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> Wow. I have been hanging around this newsgroup reading for a little
> while now and I downloaded a demo of IDL a month or two ago to
> determine what IDL could do. Despite being limited to a 7 minute demo
> now, I am quite impressed. I finally got around to asking RSI exactly
> how much it cost... WOW. I am a meager graduate student and my
> supervisor isn't too keen on paying so much money for software which he
> figures I can live without... "How much??? (cough, cough, weeze) I'm
> sure you can do that in Excel" were his exact words. I'd buy it
> myself, but there is no way I could afford it at what they quoted me.
> I looked into the 'student version' but it is far too limited to be of
> much use with my *large* datasets. I guess it is back to
> fortran, 'gri' and 'gnuplot' for me :(
>
> Will the people at RSI ever come back to reality here? Their academic
> prices are simply too high (a few hundred dollars perhaps) but what
> they are asking is crazy. I would have thought that us
> engineering/physics graduate students are the people that RSI would
> target sales for! In a few years, I'll be in industry making decisions
> about software purchases... too bad they don't realize this...
We can all sympathize with you there, Bill. If you have a large user
group of IDL, you can substantially reduce the cost per license by
pursuing a site license agreement (with some restrictions). I did this
in the department here, and now we have 100 licenses to play with (there
are other versions ... down to 25, or up to 500 licenses). It's
actually a tremendous amount of work, getting dozens of faculty and
staff to agree on fair pricing policies, etc., so make sure you know
what you're in for if you go this route.
Otherwise, you might consider giving the student version a try. I was
once considering rewriting all of my code to be compatible with the
student version -- and to deal with arrays all of which were smaller
than 65k (the student version limit). How? Use arrays of pointers to
smaller arrays. E.g., you have a 512x512 image. You can break it up as
4 256x256 images, all sitting in a pointer array im=ptrarr(2,2). Of
course you lose much of the convenience of the vector language, but at
least all of the plotting, visualization, etc. is there. With only one
layer of pointers you can get up to 4.3e9 elements. And if you have
16GB of memory, you can afford to buy IDL. Most of the I/O
restrictions are trivially overcome by using FITS or someother custom
format (though you might have to modify them to deal with the array
partitioning silliness). One concern is the student version still seems
to be based on v5.0, but surely that must be out of date. I don't
understand why they wouldn't bring the S.V. forward to.
You might also consider free IDL alternatives (no free replacements,
sadly), some of which were mentioned a month ago or so in the group.
Matlab also has a cheap fully functional version for students I
believe. Not that I advocate using it;)
Good luck,
JD
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22785 is a reply to message #22626] |
Mon, 11 December 2000 06:10 |
Paul van Delst
Messages: 364
Registered: March 1997
|
Senior Member |
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Randall Skelton wrote:
>
> On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Paul van Delst wrote:
>
>> ...Sometimes it's fun to write shell
>> scripts that modify system stuff automagically. Particularly for laptops that have certain license
>> managers installed that don't run when you change your IP address to plug into a network whilst on a
>> field trip (Not unique to IDL LM...my f90/C compilers don't work either).
>
> This magic script sounds like a *must* post item-- some of us have been
> battling this *feature* of IDL for far too long. Of course, if you do
> post it, my guess is that you'll need to change it for the next version of
> IDL... If you don't feel like posting it here, can you please send it to
> me via email!
my laptop is at home, but it's not a big deal. All I do is link to a different network.opts file (in
/etc/pcmcia), then pop the ethernet card out and back in so the changes stick. I simply create a
network.opts for every particular situation I'm currently in. If I just _have_ to use IDL at a
remote site (and I haven't set up the "Trial Version....for Eval. Purposes Only" via RSI Tech
Support, then all I have do is type in one line (to switch to the network.opts that lmgrd requires)
pop the card, and I'm off. Of course I can't communicate through the network anymore until I switch
back.
Methinks you think I'm doing something clever..... I ain't
paulv
--
Paul van Delst Ph: (301) 763-8000 x7274
CIMSS @ NOAA/NCEP Fax: (301) 763-8545
Rm.207, 5200 Auth Rd. Email: pvandelst@ncep.noaa.gov
Camp Springs MD 20746
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22791 is a reply to message #22626] |
Sun, 10 December 2000 15:10 |
davidf
Messages: 2866
Registered: September 1996
|
Senior Member |
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Rochelle Hatton (nrh@imag.wsahs.nsw.gov.au) writes:
> Aah, David, my opinion of you has transmogrified -
> you must realise that documentation(and sports articles)
> are in a secret code - to give an aura of mystery.
Of course I recognize this. This is why I throw in
an odd baseball analogy occasionally: it gives people the
impression I know what I'm talking about.
> As a test cricket match is sometimes 5 days long - what else are
> you going to talk about?
Good point, mate!
> It's not just sport - I'm having a little
> trouble following the intricacies of the US Election.
Really!? The US Election?
It's pretty clear that what is happening is a direct
result of too many Law Schools graduating too many
damn laywers. But the Supremes are on top of it now.
Should be over soon. :-)
Let's just say I don't see any reason why the election
should take any less time then the interminable lead-up
to the election. :-(
> (Of course, who would listen to a girl!)
I, for one, appreciate the input. Since
Rose has abandoned us, and Amara only weighs in
occasionally we need more feminine perspective. :-)
And despite the vociferous objections of a few of
our...(how should I say it)...less enlightened
members, I fully expect a women to be elected to
the IDL Expert Programmer's Association roles in
my lifetime.
Cheers,
David
P.S. Let's just say there must be two-dozen
women who are better presidential candidates than
these two bozos.
--
David Fanning, Ph.D.
Fanning Software Consulting
Phone: 970-221-0438 E-Mail: davidf@dfanning.com
Coyote's Guide to IDL Programming: http://www.dfanning.com/
Toll-Free IDL Book Orders: 1-888-461-0155
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22792 is a reply to message #22626] |
Sun, 10 December 2000 14:19 |
nrh
Messages: 19
Registered: September 2000
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Junior Member |
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>
Aah, David, my opinion of you has transmogrified -
you must realise that documentation(and sports articles)
are in a secret code - to give an aura of mystery.
As a test cricket match is sometimes 5 days long - what else are
you going to talk about? It's not just sport - I'm having a little
trouble following the intricacies of the US Election.
Being an Australian(and hence a few days *ahead* of the discussion)
and also a female - I felt I had to chip in my two bob's worth...
Like the cricket (it's Shane Warne BTW), you can save yourself
many more hours and perhaps your sanity by getting some help.
All this headbanging has added to your Linux headache. The secret
behind all the unintelligible documentation is that no one is
actually supposed to *read* it. It's a plot to send you so crosseyed it will
make you buy hardware that your OS *does* recognise (same for Microsoft products!!).
All my Linux problems have stemmed from using a network card it didn't like.
It seems that we may lose your valuable expertise from the group
if you bang your head on the computer any more !!
(Of course, who would listen to a girl!)
> The problem is that I don't have a clue
> about what the documentation is talking about.
>
> I'm really reminded of the first time I went
> to Australia. They were playing the big Test
> cricket match with England and the papers were
> full of talk about Shane Warner and the boys.
> But you can only read about "leg-stump googles"
> and "sticky wickets", and "stonewallers" for about
> five minutes before your eyes cross and your
> tongue is sticking in your cheek trying to twist
> your limited understanding around some dialog
> that you understand must be intelligible to
> *someone*, or it wouldn't be in a newspaper.
>
--
Basic research is what I am doing when I don't know what I am doing.
Werner Von Braun (1912-1977) German rocket engineer
Rochelle Hatton
Department of Nuclear Medicine and Ultrasound
Westmead Hospital
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22796 is a reply to message #22626] |
Fri, 08 December 2000 17:25 |
Randall Skelton
Messages: 169
Registered: October 2000
|
Senior Member |
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On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Paul van Delst wrote:
> ...Sometimes it's fun to write shell
> scripts that modify system stuff automagically. Particularly for laptops that have certain license
> managers installed that don't run when you change your IP address to plug into a network whilst on a
> field trip (Not unique to IDL LM...my f90/C compilers don't work either).
This magic script sounds like a *must* post item-- some of us have been
battling this *feature* of IDL for far too long. Of course, if you do
post it, my guess is that you'll need to change it for the next version of
IDL... If you don't feel like posting it here, can you please send it to
me via email!
Thanks in advance.
Randall
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22810 is a reply to message #22626] |
Fri, 08 December 2000 05:49 |
Paul van Delst
Messages: 364
Registered: March 1997
|
Senior Member |
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David Fanning wrote:
>
> Paul van Delst (pvandelst@ncep.noaa.gov) writes:
>
>> I like Craig Markwardt's suggestion the best. Get some help.
>
> Nah. It's totally unmanly. I put it in the same
> category as asking for directions when you are
> lost. It ain't gonna happen.
I guess. But I do bask in the glow of all the positive remarks from various female vehicular
passengers I have toted about sundry places who are impressed that I am anal about using maps to
ensure I don't get lost in the first place. In this regard I will wear my unmanly status as a badge
of pride. :o)
> P.S. Let's just say my head's going soft from
> banging on this untractable Unix. :-)
I've had the same problem with Windows, Unix, and OS/2 (the latter being the most useful and user
friendly I reckon. Pity it went away.) Time healeth all wounds and hardens thy noggin. Maybe this is
the root of the curmudgeon factor that Craig Markwardt mentioned a while back. :o)
paulv
--
Paul van Delst Ph: (301) 763-8000 x7274
CIMSS @ NOAA/NCEP Fax: (301) 763-8545
Rm.207, 5200 Auth Rd. Email: pvandelst@ncep.noaa.gov
Camp Springs MD 20746
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22811 is a reply to message #22626] |
Fri, 08 December 2000 05:38 |
Paul van Delst
Messages: 364
Registered: March 1997
|
Senior Member |
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Nigel Wade wrote:
>
> "Pavel A. Romashkin" wrote:
>>
>> Nigel Wade wrote:
>>>
>>> Hint, to mount a share :
>>>
>>> mount -t smb -ousername=ntusername //nt-server/share /mount/point
>>
>> Geez, this syntax reminds me so much of those good ol' DOS days when you
>> had to type a screenfull to get something out of the computer. I guess I
>> am too spoiled by plug-n-play, working autodetect and point-n-click. I
>> am not too excited to manage IRQs and memory allocation myself anymore.
>> I like to type in a procedure window more than on a system prompt :-(
>>
>> Pavel
>
> Ah, that's fine when it all works.
>
> What do you do when it fails?
>
> All the documentation tells you is how to use the nice GUI.
> Everything else is deliberatly hidden.
You have put into words why (almost) totally GUI driven systems like Windows disturb me. I guess
it's a case of the using the tool one feels most comfortable with. Sometimes it's fun to write shell
scripts that modify system stuff automagically. Particularly for laptops that have certain license
managers installed that don't run when you change your IP address to plug into a network whilst on a
field trip (Not unique to IDL LM...my f90/C compilers don't work either).
Just yesterday I thought I'd try and mount the writeable CD-ROM on my desktop linux box. Took 2
minutes. One minute to read the man page (to determine what type of filesystem to use) and one more
to write a script to do it all automagically...and I use vi!
In the end, though, it's the same dog different leg I reckon, linux/windows. Whatever lets one get
their work done.
paulv
--
Paul van Delst Ph: (301) 763-8000 x7274
CIMSS @ NOAA/NCEP Fax: (301) 763-8545
Rm.207, 5200 Auth Rd. Email: pvandelst@ncep.noaa.gov
Camp Springs MD 20746
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22812 is a reply to message #22626] |
Fri, 08 December 2000 05:22 |
colinr
Messages: 30
Registered: July 1999
|
Member |
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On Fri, 08 Dec 2000 10:31:21 +0000,
Nigel Wade <nmw@ion.le.ac.uk> wrote:
> David Fanning wrote:
>>
>> Randall Skelton (rhskelto@atm.ox.ac.uk) writes:
>>
>>> David, you don't even need to ask... all the documentation you need is
>>> available online in point-&-click HTML http://www.linuxdoc.org :)
>>
>> Why is it that these totally off-topic posts always seem
>> to take on a life of their own? :-(
>>
>> This is my LAST post on this subject. (Unless TOTALLY
>> provoked.)
>>
>
> Nah, you can't give up yet - we haven't invoked Godwin's Law.
Hah, a L*nux Nazi!
--
Colin Rosenthal
Astrophysics Institute
University of Oslo
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22818 is a reply to message #22626] |
Thu, 07 December 2000 09:30 |
Pavel A. Romashkin
Messages: 531
Registered: November 2000
|
Senior Member |
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Peter Clinch wrote:
> it actually takes longer to remove all the
> additonal cack I don't want and don't need and to configure it sensibly
> than it takes to do a fresh install... <groan>
This is hard to imagine. "Format C:" really does not take that long at
all, just skip the low-level format part for that 80 Gb drive :-)
Cheers,
Pavel
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22819 is a reply to message #22626] |
Thu, 07 December 2000 09:35 |
Pavel A. Romashkin
Messages: 531
Registered: November 2000
|
Senior Member |
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David Fanning wrote:
>
> Have you seen the price of Apple shares this morning?
> That's what plug-and-play will get you. :-)
I am humbly advising against checking the prices of shares while trying
to install Linux. This will lead to no good :-)
Cheers,
Pavel
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22820 is a reply to message #22626] |
Thu, 07 December 2000 09:51 |
davidf
Messages: 2866
Registered: September 1996
|
Senior Member |
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Nick Bower (bowern@ses.curtin.edu.au) writes:
> you can't make demands about something that's free on the other hand. :)
I can see how you can believe this, but it's
obvious to me you have never had occasion to
give away free software. :-)
Cheers,
David
P.S. Let's just say one of the reasons people *don't*
publish more web pages is because they grow tired of the
constant effort.
--
David Fanning, Ph.D.
Fanning Software Consulting
Phone: 970-221-0438 E-Mail: davidf@dfanning.com
Coyote's Guide to IDL Programming: http://www.dfanning.com/
Toll-Free IDL Book Orders: 1-888-461-0155
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22821 is a reply to message #22626] |
Thu, 07 December 2000 09:34 |
Nick Bower
Messages: 43
Registered: June 1999
|
Member |
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> I'm sure everyone is as tired of my installation problems
> as I am, but let me just share one more story of my trials
> and tribulations last night.
oh god, i think i see a story, and the ensuring thread, coming. ;)
i think we all realize that you can't bitch about linux. people pay for
windows, so have some right to whinge about it when they out-grow it.
you can't make demands about something that's free on the other hand. :)
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22822 is a reply to message #22626] |
Thu, 07 December 2000 09:30 |
Nick Bower
Messages: 43
Registered: June 1999
|
Member |
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>>
>> Hint, to mount a share :
>>
>> mount -t smb -ousername=ntusername //nt-server/share /mount/point
>
> Geez, this syntax reminds me so much of those good ol' DOS days when you
that's like saying the cheap amarni rip-off reminds you of the real thing
(read: original). :)
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22827 is a reply to message #22626] |
Thu, 07 December 2000 08:28 |
Pavel A. Romashkin
Messages: 531
Registered: November 2000
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Senior Member |
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Just to make you feel better, David. The biggest mistake I ever made on
my home PC was to run Norton Utilities on it about 3 months ago, after
it was working perfectly for 2 years. I thought, I'll optimize that
fragmented hard drive. Well, Norton is a virus that you willingly put
into your healthy system. It has never worked right since then. I have a
bad feeling it re-flashed BIOS for me somehow, because the PC freezes
while still in BIOS. I removed the entire W95 that worked so well,
reinstalled W95, removed it, reinstalled DOS, removed it, rinstalled
W98, upgraded to W98SE, removed it, reinstalled it again fresh. So,
yesterday I had the poor thing apart to the last removeable chip, guess
how much fun that was. My living room looked like if a grenade exploded
inside a computer :-(
By the way, I heard that W-2k is not nearly as plug-n-play as W-98, for
the simple reason that it is NT based, which is non-plug and play. My
newly installed W-98 detects everything, not only what you plug into the
computer, but even what you bring close to it. Like, a couple of times
it decided it found new hardware while I was just sitting there, doing
nothing. Then, it would install software for it and tell me that it
works fine. I have no idea what hardware it is, but as long as it works
fine, its fine with me. I guess, it (W-98) all of a sudden realizes that
it forgot to look somewhere on the computer, and looks there, and finds
some new hardware it never thought was there :-)
Cheers,
Pavel
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22828 is a reply to message #22626] |
Thu, 07 December 2000 08:40 |
davidf
Messages: 2866
Registered: September 1996
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Senior Member |
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Pavel A. Romashkin (pavel.romashkin@noaa.gov) writes:
> Geez, this syntax reminds me so much of those good ol' DOS days when you
> had to type a screenfull to get something out of the computer. I guess I
> am too spoiled by plug-n-play, working autodetect and point-n-click. I
> am not too excited to manage IRQs and memory allocation myself anymore.
> I like to type in a procedure window more than on a system prompt :-(
You Mac guys are all alike.
Have you seen the price of Apple shares this morning?
That's what plug-and-play will get you. :-)
Cheers,
David
--
David Fanning, Ph.D.
Fanning Software Consulting
Phone: 970-221-0438 E-Mail: davidf@dfanning.com
Coyote's Guide to IDL Programming: http://www.dfanning.com/
Toll-Free IDL Book Orders: 1-888-461-0155
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22830 is a reply to message #22626] |
Thu, 07 December 2000 08:13 |
Pavel A. Romashkin
Messages: 531
Registered: November 2000
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Senior Member |
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Nigel Wade wrote:
>
> Hint, to mount a share :
>
> mount -t smb -ousername=ntusername //nt-server/share /mount/point
Geez, this syntax reminds me so much of those good ol' DOS days when you
had to type a screenfull to get something out of the computer. I guess I
am too spoiled by plug-n-play, working autodetect and point-n-click. I
am not too excited to manage IRQs and memory allocation myself anymore.
I like to type in a procedure window more than on a system prompt :-(
Pavel
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22832 is a reply to message #22626] |
Thu, 07 December 2000 08:10 |
Peter Clinch
Messages: 98
Registered: April 1996
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Member |
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David Fanning wrote:
> Last night all I wanted to do was move my nice HP Inkjet
> printer from my Linux machine (where it was doing me no
> good, since that machine *still* can't find a network),
Oh, that was my pet problem with a first Linux install (Redhat 5.n).
Found out I had to tell linuxconf exactly what sort of network card I
had, which was absolutely not obvious anywhere in the networking
"instructions" that came with the OS.
Since I got someone else going by pointing this out, I assume it might
not just have been me...
The thing that bothers me most about Windows installs are that I have to
do them at all. We get a PC preloaded with NT (cheaper than a separate
license), and I've found it actually takes longer to remove all the
additonal cack I don't want and don't need and to configure it sensibly
than it takes to do a fresh install... <groan>
Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22834 is a reply to message #22626] |
Thu, 07 December 2000 07:55 |
davidf
Messages: 2866
Registered: September 1996
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Senior Member |
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Nigel Wade (nmw@ion.le.ac.uk) writes:
> I think this is caused by commercial pressure to make
> Linux appear more and more like Windows ;-)
I'm sure everyone is as tired of my installation problems
as I am, but let me just share one more story of my trials
and tribulations last night.
In fact, I'm beginning to think Windows and Linux *are*
a lot alike. :-)
Last night all I wanted to do was move my nice HP Inkjet
printer from my Linux machine (where it was doing me no
good, since that machine *still* can't find a network),
to my machine that had the new Windows 2000 installed on
it (in about 10 minutes) last week.
This is a plug-and-play printer. Windows 2000 is a
plug-and-play operating system. I expected to be able
to plug-and-get-back-to-the-damn-Linux-problem. No luck. :-(
For three hours I futzed around trying to get my
trusty *other* machine (which this week has suddenly
decided to go into the ozone whenever I try to do
an anonymous ftp download...sigh) to recognize the
printer on the Windows 2000 machine.
In the end, I just said "Screw you" (have I told this
story before?) and re-executed the commands that were
*suppose* to have worked the first time I tried it,
and they worked perfectly. (Big sigh....)
I really do think I hate computers. :-(
Cheers,
David
P.S. Let's just say I've thought about selling all
my technology stocks, but looking at those huge losses
just makes me even more depressed.
--
David Fanning, Ph.D.
Fanning Software Consulting
Phone: 970-221-0438 E-Mail: davidf@dfanning.com
Coyote's Guide to IDL Programming: http://www.dfanning.com/
Toll-Free IDL Book Orders: 1-888-461-0155
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22835 is a reply to message #22626] |
Thu, 07 December 2000 07:28 |
Nigel Wade
Messages: 286
Registered: March 1998
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Senior Member |
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David Fanning wrote:
>
> Kenneth Mankoff (mankoff@lasp.colorado.edu) writes:
>
>> i think the linux/unix open source school would very much disagree with
>> "free is not worth much". Free can be better.
>
> I wish I could agree with you, but after spending
> five frustrating days getting nowhere with a Linux install,
> I'm not so sure Linux is ready to take over the world. :-(
>
> Granted, I'm an idiot when it comes to this, but not
> a *complete* idiot. Here are the directions for getting
> my Linux computer to see my other computers:
>
> Page 349: Connecting to Windows Computers
>
> When your computer is connected to a network, Samba
> Client lets you share files. For information about
> using Samba Client software, see page 156.
>
> Page 156:
>
> You must configure Samba Client so you can share
> directories with Windows systems. For information
> about using Samba Client software, see page 349.
>
> Does anyone else see a problem here!? :-(
I think this is caused by commercial pressure to make
Linux appear more and more like Windows ;-)
Besides, whoever heard of page numbers in Linux documentation?
Try the SMB-howto, there are no page numbers in that to give
documentation loops like that.
Hint, to mount a share :
mount -t smb -ousername=ntusername //nt-server/share /mount/point
To share a filesystem with a SMB client try linuxconf if your
distro has that. Otherwise, happy reading!!
>
> Cheers,
>
> David
>
I generally find its the other way around. I can typically install
a Linux system in an hour or less. Windows on the other hand...
I guess it's down to what you know. The typical example goes along
the lines:
A computer user with several years of using/installing Windows
systems tries to install Linux. Forgetting the frustrating hours
they spent the first time they tried to install Windows and it
failed, they exclaim "Why is Linux so hard to install?
Windows is really easy!".
Not that I am biased or anything...
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Nigel Wade, System Administrator, Space Plasma Physics Group,
University of Leicester, Leicester, LE1 7RH, UK
E-mail : nmw@ion.le.ac.uk
Phone : +44 (0)116 2523568, Fax : +44 (0)116 2523555
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22837 is a reply to message #22626] |
Thu, 07 December 2000 00:00 |
davidf
Messages: 2866
Registered: September 1996
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Senior Member |
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Randall Skelton (rhskelto@atm.ox.ac.uk) writes:
> David, you don't even need to ask... all the documentation you need is
> available online in point-&-click HTML http://www.linuxdoc.org :)
Why is it that these totally off-topic posts always seem
to take on a life of their own? :-(
This is my LAST post on this subject. (Unless TOTALLY
provoked.)
The problem is not finding the documentation (you can't
believe how many people have replied--and commiserated--
with me and most have offered pointers to yet more
documentation). And the problem is not even reading
the documentation. I'm pretty sure it is written
in English. The problem is that I don't have a clue
about what the documentation is talking about.
I'm really reminded of the first time I went
to Australia. They were playing the big Test
cricket match with England and the papers were
full of talk about Shane Warner and the boys.
But you can only read about "leg-stump googles"
and "sticky wickets", and "stonewallers" for about
five minutes before your eyes cross and your
tongue is sticking in your cheek trying to twist
your limited understanding around some dialog
that you understand must be intelligible to
*someone*, or it wouldn't be in a newspaper.
But, try as I might, those articles have *never*
been intelligible to me. It's kind of the way I
feel when I read anything written by JD about
objects. :-)
Cheers,
David
P.S. Let's just say you are unlikely to find the word
"transmogrification" in one of my books.
--
David Fanning, Ph.D.
Fanning Software Consulting
Phone: 970-221-0438 E-Mail: davidf@dfanning.com
Coyote's Guide to IDL Programming: http://www.dfanning.com/
Toll-Free IDL Book Orders: 1-888-461-0155
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22838 is a reply to message #22626] |
Thu, 07 December 2000 00:00 |
Randall Skelton
Messages: 169
Registered: October 2000
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Senior Member |
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I've kept out of all the unix bashing that has rolled through the
newsgroup today... too busy reading Ronn's new book :)
I've saved a few of the better posts for posterity... A comment to those
who are struggling with Linux. Truth be told, the Linux OS is exceedingly
logical-- far more so that Windows or the MacOS because you have complete
control of everything and all the files are human readable ASCII. While I
agree that it will take some time to *understand* these human readable,
ASCII files (many of which are in /etc for those who haven't found them
yet) after 6 months of using unix, you'll find it difficult to go back to
windows and the "notorious blue screen of death." If you haven't already
found help with Linux, I suggest you look at www.linuxdoc.org as they have
an excellent source of online books and HOWTOs...
David, you don't even need to ask... all the documentation you need is
available online in point-&-click HTML http://www.linuxdoc.org :)
Randall
PS: For those who remember what the original intent of the "It costs how
much?!!?!" thread, I brought up the Visual Numerics student licensing of
PV-WAVE with the sales people at RSI and after two days they have yet to
get back to me with comments. I'm not overly optimistic at this point.
On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, David Fanning wrote:
> Nah. It's totally unmanly. I put it in the same
> category as asking for directions when you are
> lost. It ain't gonna happen.
>
> Cheers,
>
> David
>
> P.S. Let's just say my head's going soft from
> banging on this untractable Unix. :-)
>
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22839 is a reply to message #22626] |
Thu, 07 December 2000 00:00 |
davidf
Messages: 2866
Registered: September 1996
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Senior Member |
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Paul van Delst (pvandelst@ncep.noaa.gov) writes:
> I like Craig Markwardt's suggestion the best. Get some help.
Nah. It's totally unmanly. I put it in the same
category as asking for directions when you are
lost. It ain't gonna happen.
Cheers,
David
P.S. Let's just say my head's going soft from
banging on this untractable Unix. :-)
--
David Fanning, Ph.D.
Fanning Software Consulting
Phone: 970-221-0438 E-Mail: davidf@dfanning.com
Coyote's Guide to IDL Programming: http://www.dfanning.com/
Toll-Free IDL Book Orders: 1-888-461-0155
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22840 is a reply to message #22626] |
Thu, 07 December 2000 00:00 |
Paul van Delst
Messages: 364
Registered: March 1997
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Senior Member |
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"Pavel A. Romashkin" wrote:
>
> Kenneth Mankoff wrote:
>
>> And if it were open source, us linux-using students who like to hack
>> things apart and put them together in our spare time would turn out some
>> mean routines to improve the product. This theoretical free open-source
>> student IDL (wow, aren't i in a daydream) would probably have openGL, GUI
>> builders, ports to Palm Vx OS, entire libraries of extensions, etc., all
>> within a few months..
>
> The only downside I am envisioning in this daydream is that then nobody
> will be compatible with each other. I use Build 20.6.1a-1, David is on
> 21.3.4b, and Craig is on the legacy RSI one. More of a nightmare than
> daydream :-(
>
> Pavel
This is totally off topic, but what the hell - so is most everything else in this newsgroup
today.....
It just occurred to me that this thread tends to show the ages of the posters :o) Those who are
least likely to tolerate "weirdness" (and there is a lot of it) installing a new OS they've never
encountered before and those who regard said weirdness as an interesting learning exercise (which at
least with linux can be changed by the user community if the OS-install weird-o-meter goes off
scale).
I like Craig Markwardt's suggestion the best. Get some help. If not professional, then consider that
the plethora of message boards and websites and what not where linux newbies can ask dumb questions
is quite astounding.
paulv
--
Paul van Delst Ph: (301) 763-8000 x7274
CIMSS @ NOAA/NCEP Fax: (301) 763-8545
Rm.207, 5200 Auth Rd. Email: pvandelst@ncep.noaa.gov
Camp Springs MD 20746
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22846 is a reply to message #22626] |
Wed, 06 December 2000 13:41 |
Mark Hadfield
Messages: 783
Registered: May 1995
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Senior Member |
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"J.D. Smith" <jdsmith@astro.cornell.edu> wrote in message
news:3A2EAC1D.8192BF7E@astro.cornell.edu...
>
> I recommend you wait for OS X to come around. You will certainly have a
> nice Emacs available at that point, and if you squeak enough, an IDL
> Shell (non-IDLDE) mode too.
Well, an IDL Shell has been technically feasible on Windows for 10 years now
and has never been implemented by RSI, so we all better get squeaking long
and loud!
Squeak. squeak.
---
Mark Hadfield
m.hadfield@niwa.cri.nz http://katipo.niwa.cri.nz/~hadfield/
National Institute for Water and Atmospheric Research
PO Box 14-901, Wellington, New Zealand
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22849 is a reply to message #22626] |
Wed, 06 December 2000 10:16 |
Nick Bower
Messages: 43
Registered: June 1999
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Member |
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> The only downside I am envisioning in this daydream is that then nobody
> will be compatible with each other. I use Build 20.6.1a-1, David is on
> 21.3.4b, and Craig is on the legacy RSI one. More of a nightmare than
> daydream :-(
ha. the linux kernel still hasn't forked. but you probably already knew this
and i'm now making a completely obvious reply to a tounge in cheek statement
;)
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22850 is a reply to message #22626] |
Wed, 06 December 2000 00:00 |
jeyadev
Messages: 78
Registered: February 1995
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Member |
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In article <MPG.149703645397dab2989ca3@news.frii.com>,
David Fanning <davidf@dfanning.com> wrote:
> Bruce Bowler (bbowler@bigelow.org) writes:
>
>> I've said it before and I'll say it again... RSI/Kodak ought to GIVE
>> AWAY the student version. There is no better way to get penetration
>> into the workplace than to have new hires experienced in using your
>> product. There's no better way to get students to use a product than to
>> GIVE it to them.
>
> I think the impression most people have is that if
> someone is giving something away, it's not worth
> much. I do think it makes sense though to charge
But, does not mean that the strategy will not work.
Consider the fact that AT&T gave away Unix for next
to nothing to the universites ......
Of course, nothing is better than getting a manager
hooked .....
--
Surendar Jeyadev jeyadev@wrc.xerox.com
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22851 is a reply to message #22846] |
Wed, 06 December 2000 00:00 |
J.D. Smith
Messages: 214
Registered: August 1996
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Senior Member |
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Mark Hadfield wrote:
>
> "J.D. Smith" <jdsmith@astro.cornell.edu> wrote in message
> news:3A2EAC1D.8192BF7E@astro.cornell.edu...
>>
>> I recommend you wait for OS X to come around. You will certainly have a
>> nice Emacs available at that point, and if you squeak enough, an IDL
>> Shell (non-IDLDE) mode too.
>
> Well, an IDL Shell has been technically feasible on Windows for 10 years now
> and has never been implemented by RSI, so we all better get squeaking long
> and loud!
>
> Squeak. squeak.
The difference is that porting to the BSD layer of OS X will be trivial
in comparison with rolling your own Window's Shell.
JD
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22859 is a reply to message #22626] |
Wed, 06 December 2000 00:00 |
Craig Markwardt
Messages: 1869
Registered: November 1996
|
Senior Member |
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"Pavel A. Romashkin" <pavel.romashkin@noaa.gov> writes:
> My experience with open source software is limited, and negative. I see
> Linux used more and more and have nothing against it (except that it
> "takes professional help" to set it up, like nothing else I know of that
> makes your computer screen light up, even DOS), but the commercial OSes
> do it for me so far. Adobe, IDL, and even Microsoft (sometimes) software
> works on my PC, my Macs and HP UX. And emacs that I tried... forget it,
> I better switch topics :-(
I'm glad you have an opinion. However please consider the difference
between the open source "dogma" and open source in practical terms.
When you find an IDLGrLegend bug, you at least would have the
*potential* of looking at the underlying source code and might be able
to fix it. Contrast this with RSI/Kodak, where you never know if your
bug report will be prioritized away.
Okay, I agree, enough said, [ having had the last word :-]
Craig
--
------------------------------------------------------------ --------------
Craig B. Markwardt, Ph.D. EMAIL: craigmnet@cow.physics.wisc.edu
Astrophysics, IDL, Finance, Derivatives | Remove "net" for better response
------------------------------------------------------------ --------------
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22860 is a reply to message #22626] |
Wed, 06 December 2000 00:00 |
John-David T. Smith
Messages: 384
Registered: January 2000
|
Senior Member |
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"Pavel A. Romashkin" wrote:
>
> Sorry Craig, didn't mean any offence. I guess, I should have written
> "David uses Build 20.6.1a-1, Craig is on
> 21.3.4b, and Pavel is on the legacy RSI one".
> My experience with open source software is limited, and negative. I see
> Linux used more and more and have nothing against it (except that it
> "takes professional help" to set it up, like nothing else I know of that
> makes your computer screen light up, even DOS), but the commercial OSes
> do it for me so far. Adobe, IDL, and even Microsoft (sometimes) software
> works on my PC, my Macs and HP UX. And emacs that I tried... forget it,
> I better switch topics :-(
Pavel,
I recommend you wait for OS X to come around. You will certainly have a
nice Emacs available at that point, and if you squeak enough, an IDL
Shell (non-IDLDE) mode too. Of course, a very large portion of OS X
will be based on free software, so I don't know what this will do to
your world view ;).
In the meantime, did you try http://mac-emacs.sourceforge.net/?
JD
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22865 is a reply to message #22626] |
Wed, 06 December 2000 00:00 |
Pavel A. Romashkin
Messages: 531
Registered: November 2000
|
Senior Member |
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Sorry Craig, didn't mean any offence. I guess, I should have written
"David uses Build 20.6.1a-1, Craig is on
21.3.4b, and Pavel is on the legacy RSI one".
My experience with open source software is limited, and negative. I see
Linux used more and more and have nothing against it (except that it
"takes professional help" to set it up, like nothing else I know of that
makes your computer screen light up, even DOS), but the commercial OSes
do it for me so far. Adobe, IDL, and even Microsoft (sometimes) software
works on my PC, my Macs and HP UX. And emacs that I tried... forget it,
I better switch topics :-(
Pavel
Craig Markwardt wrote:
>
> I wonder if you think the current RSI IDL version progression is any
> less of a nightmare? From a support standpoint it pretty much blows.
> I think every procedure in the IDL manual should have a
> version-compatibility matrix.
>
> Believe me, I'd be using Build 23.1 if it was open-source. I would
> *prefer* IDL to be open source.
>
> Craig
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22869 is a reply to message #22626] |
Wed, 06 December 2000 00:00 |
Craig Markwardt
Messages: 1869
Registered: November 1996
|
Senior Member |
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"Pavel A. Romashkin" <pavel.romashkin@noaa.gov> writes:
> Kenneth Mankoff wrote:
>
>> And if it were open source, us linux-using students who like to hack
>> things apart and put them together in our spare time would turn out some
>> mean routines to improve the product. This theoretical free open-source
>> student IDL (wow, aren't i in a daydream) would probably have openGL, GUI
>> builders, ports to Palm Vx OS, entire libraries of extensions, etc., all
>> within a few months..
>
> The only downside I am envisioning in this daydream is that then nobody
> will be compatible with each other. I use Build 20.6.1a-1, David is on
> 21.3.4b, and Craig is on the legacy RSI one. More of a nightmare than
> daydream :-(
I wonder if you think the current RSI IDL version progression is any
less of a nightmare? From a support standpoint it pretty much blows.
I think every procedure in the IDL manual should have a
version-compatibility matrix.
Believe me, I'd be using Build 23.1 if it was open-source. I would
*prefer* IDL to be open source.
Craig
--
------------------------------------------------------------ --------------
Craig B. Markwardt, Ph.D. EMAIL: craigmnet@cow.physics.wisc.edu
Astrophysics, IDL, Finance, Derivatives | Remove "net" for better response
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22872 is a reply to message #22626] |
Wed, 06 December 2000 00:00 |
Kenneth Mankoff
Messages: 42
Registered: August 1999
|
Member |
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On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, Pavel A. Romashkin wrote:
> Kenneth Mankoff wrote:
>
>> And if it were open source, us linux-using students who like to hack
>> things apart and put them together in our spare time would turn out some
>> mean routines to improve the product. This theoretical free open-source
>> student IDL (wow, aren't i in a daydream) would probably have openGL, GUI
>> builders, ports to Palm Vx OS, entire libraries of extensions, etc., all
>> within a few months..
>
> The only downside I am envisioning in this daydream is that then nobody
> will be compatible with each other. I use Build 20.6.1a-1, David is on
> 21.3.4b, and Craig is on the legacy RSI one. More of a nightmare than
> daydream :-(
true... very true. Different can cause problems. But they don't have to.
Even though my friends have different builds, releases, and versions of
linux, there is very little problems we have sharing the files we work on
together.
And i should point out that for the linux part of this thread:
a. I never would have tried to install it if i knew it would require so
many sleepless nights and so much time
b. I'm glad i didn't know, because i'm glad i eventually got it working.
c. I was incapacated at the time with two broken backs (one from skiing,
one from a car wreck 20 days later), and had nothing better to do over
last Xmas break, and...
d. I've made up the time 'wasted' installing linux and not working becuase
i'm not stuck working in a bad GUI environment :).
-k.
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| Re: It costs how much?!!?! [message #22874 is a reply to message #22626] |
Wed, 06 December 2000 00:00 |
Pavel A. Romashkin
Messages: 531
Registered: November 2000
|
Senior Member |
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Kenneth Mankoff wrote:
> This is only because a year ago, when i tried RH5.2, it took ten days to
> install, and a week to get X running. 6.0 took a day to have the whole
> system up. 6.2 took four hours. 7.0 took fourty-five minutes. And no, its
> not my cdroms, busses, and processors that are speeding up, its the
> software, ease-of-use, and (most of all) my personal knowledge-base.
I have no personal knowledge base that would be worth advertising here,
but it took me 9 minutes yesterday to reinstall Mac OS 9.0.4, when I had
to. I think I can use the 4 days I'd spend on Linux for work-related projects.
Pavel
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comp.lang.idl-pvwave archive
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