| Re: Linux Question [message #42549] |
Wed, 16 February 2005 15:05  |
Chris Lee
Messages: 101
Registered: August 2003
|
Senior Member |
|
|
In article <MPG.1c7d36d72026efed98991b@news.frii.com>, "David Fanning"
<davidf@dfanning.com> wrote:
> Ok, you Linux guys,
> I have to break down and install Linux so I can sort out some X Windows
> problems with my IDL widgets. Which flavor is the easiest to install for
> the, uh, less technically astute members of our esteemed organization?
> :-)
> Cheers,
> David
> P.S. I'll probably put it on an old DELL laptop I have around here and
> have been using as a doorstop.
I would vote for Knoppix, since that's what I'm using right now. It's a
Debian distribution with a good hardware detection at bootup. If you
download the LiveCD you can try it in the laptop without any installing.
That will at least tell you whether the laptop will have any chance of
running other distributions.
At work, there are various IDL versions running on both Redhat 7.3,
8.something and Debian sarge/unstable. Even though IDL says
in quite a few places that it's designed for Redhat Enterprise edition
(or I guess Fedora core 2).....You didn't really think the Linux users in
this group would all give you the same answer did you? Don't forget to
lean to use IDLWAVE, the IDLDE under linux is.... not good.
As for the color, that's the way it's meant to be dammit ! I don't need
no stinking true color :), 256 colors - a few special ones (CMYK,RGB,W)
are plenty.
Anyway, my GUI frontend to the PSEUDO function is so much fun to play
with, I hardly get any work done anymore.
Chris.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Linux Question [message #42550 is a reply to message #42549] |
Wed, 16 February 2005 14:55  |
David Fanning
Messages: 11724
Registered: August 2001
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Paul Van Delst writes:
> This problem reflects more on the lack of intuition/general intelligence of the end users
> than linux.
Oh, don't even get me started on this depressing topic.
When I first started teaching IDL classes I estimated
about a third of the people taking a class would probably
not be successful using it. That number these days is
considerably higher. Well over 50% it seems to me,
and some days it seems much higher than that.
It's not really a matter of intelligence. Most of the
people in an IDL class have advanced degrees in physical
sciences. It is something else, and I can't really put my
finger on it. (I used to think it was because they were forced
to use LINUX computers, but now I know better.) They
don't understand programming at all. They don't really
know what a variable is, they don't know how to type
a program, they don't understand how windows work on
their computers. Really basic stuff I would have thought
you learned as a physical science undergraduate. But
if so, they have forgotten a lot of it.
My wife bears the brunt of this usually, but I don't
know how these people do their jobs! But it is clear
to me that IDL is not going to be of much help.
I feel sad about it most of the time. I really don't
know what to do about it.
> If I recall, DF's Munich Adventure was at some sort of observatory? ESO,
> right? Now, astronomer types can be a strange lot, but I reckon he (DF) has embellished a
> bit here for the sake of a good anecdote.
Have you *EVER* known me to embellish an anecdote. I think not!! :-)
> If not, it sounds like the hiring practices at
> ESO need, uh, some review.
It's not just ESO. It's every place I have been lately.
It's what happens, frankly, when you start teaching
intelligent design in science classes. Or maybe
what happens when you let Computer Scientists
teach computer programming classes, I'm not sure.
But someone, somewhere is not getting the message
across. And scientific programming is suffering
because of it.
Cheers,
David
P.S. Let's just say I would be thinking about putting a lot of money
(if I had any) in Chinese software companies. :-)
--
David Fanning, Ph.D.
Fanning Software Consulting, Inc.
Coyote's Guide to IDL Programming: http://www.dfanning.com/
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Linux Question [message #42554 is a reply to message #42552] |
Wed, 16 February 2005 13:52 |
Paul Van Delst[1]
Messages: 1157
Registered: April 2002
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Michael Wallace wrote:
>> You probably wouldn't believe the number of e-mails I get
>> from LINUX users who can't get color to make sense to them.
>
>
> I can relate. I have to explain color to all my co-workers.
>
>> (And this was confirmed by my visit to Munich, where at least
>> 75% of the LINUX users were confused about *something*.)
>> Almost always they are running DirectColor visuals. No one
>> has ever told them anything different and they think IDL
>> is *suppose* to behave this way, I guess. At least an
>> awful lot of them were surprised when I told them
>> red plots on black backgrounds are not really normal
>> in IDL. :-(
>
>
> This really isn't a Linux problem. It's an end user problem. You can
> get red/black plots just as easy in Windows. And I did that a number of
> times before I sat down and took the time to figure out colors one day.
I was gonna say....
This problem reflects more on the lack of intuition/general intelligence of the end users
than linux. If I recall, DF's Munich Adventure was at some sort of observatory? ESO,
right? Now, astronomer types can be a strange lot, but I reckon he (DF) has embellished a
bit here for the sake of a good anecdote. If not, it sounds like the hiring practices at
ESO need, uh, some review. (And the IT Customer Service Dept needs some training too, it
would appear, along with all the IDL users there.)
:o)
paulv
--
Paul van Delst
CIMSS @ NOAA/NCEP/EMC
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Linux Question [message #42557 is a reply to message #42555] |
Wed, 16 February 2005 13:30 |
Jonathan Greenberg
Messages: 91
Registered: November 2002
|
Member |
|
|
Not to get a barrage of hate mails, but the easiest *nix which supports IDL
by far is MacOS X. Spend $500 and get the mac mini!
--j
On 2/16/05 12:55 PM, in article MPG.1c7d61192b9304db98991d@news.frii.com,
"David Fanning" <davidf@dfanning.com> wrote:
> Michael Wallace writes:
>
>> Huh? What's that all about? Color works fine. Back in the IDL 5.x
>> days, color wasn't so good. I needed to put the magic color commands in
>> my ~/.Xdefaults to resolve some color problems, but I haven't needed
>> that for a long time. I'm not sure when the problem was fixed, but I
>> know that I didn't need the work-around for IDL 6.0. Color works
>> exactly the same in Linux as it does in other operating systems.
>
> You probably wouldn't believe the number of e-mails I get
> from LINUX users who can't get color to make sense to them.
> (And this was confirmed by my visit to Munich, where at least
> 75% of the LINUX users were confused about *something*.)
> Almost always they are running DirectColor visuals. No one
> has ever told them anything different and they think IDL
> is *suppose* to behave this way, I guess. At least an
> awful lot of them were surprised when I told them
> red plots on black backgrounds are not really normal
> in IDL. :-(
>
> There were perhaps 75-100 LINUX users where I was,
> and only one person who clearly knew what he was doing.
> Everyone would call him. He would storm into your office,
> kick you out of your chair, and sit pounding on the keys
> for 10 minutes. Then he would say, "There, that should do it, "
> and leave. Everyone of us was left wondering what the hell
> had just happened! After an experience like this, no one
> bothered to call him again. (He had learned this
> technique from doctors, no doubt.)
>
> At least half the LINUX users I knew didn't know
> that windows were suppose to be repaired properly
> when they were exposed. They just re-ran their plot
> command if a plot window got behind something else.
>
> I am always amazed with what people put up with,
> but this was really an eye-opening experience.
> I recommend *anyone* who writes software for a
> living go spend a couple of months with the end-users.
> You will never be the same. :-)
>
> Cheers,
>
> David
>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Linux Question [message #42558 is a reply to message #42557] |
Wed, 16 February 2005 12:55 |
David Fanning
Messages: 11724
Registered: August 2001
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Michael Wallace writes:
> Huh? What's that all about? Color works fine. Back in the IDL 5.x
> days, color wasn't so good. I needed to put the magic color commands in
> my ~/.Xdefaults to resolve some color problems, but I haven't needed
> that for a long time. I'm not sure when the problem was fixed, but I
> know that I didn't need the work-around for IDL 6.0. Color works
> exactly the same in Linux as it does in other operating systems.
You probably wouldn't believe the number of e-mails I get
from LINUX users who can't get color to make sense to them.
(And this was confirmed by my visit to Munich, where at least
75% of the LINUX users were confused about *something*.)
Almost always they are running DirectColor visuals. No one
has ever told them anything different and they think IDL
is *suppose* to behave this way, I guess. At least an
awful lot of them were surprised when I told them
red plots on black backgrounds are not really normal
in IDL. :-(
There were perhaps 75-100 LINUX users where I was,
and only one person who clearly knew what he was doing.
Everyone would call him. He would storm into your office,
kick you out of your chair, and sit pounding on the keys
for 10 minutes. Then he would say, "There, that should do it, "
and leave. Everyone of us was left wondering what the hell
had just happened! After an experience like this, no one
bothered to call him again. (He had learned this
technique from doctors, no doubt.)
At least half the LINUX users I knew didn't know
that windows were suppose to be repaired properly
when they were exposed. They just re-ran their plot
command if a plot window got behind something else.
I am always amazed with what people put up with,
but this was really an eye-opening experience.
I recommend *anyone* who writes software for a
living go spend a couple of months with the end-users.
You will never be the same. :-)
Cheers,
David
--
David Fanning, Ph.D.
Fanning Software Consulting, Inc.
Coyote's Guide to IDL Programming: http://www.dfanning.com/
|
|
|
|
| Re: Linux Question [message #42559 is a reply to message #42558] |
Wed, 16 February 2005 12:19 |
Michael Wallace
Messages: 409
Registered: December 2003
|
Senior Member |
|
|
>> However, I thought I should give
>> you a warning. I'm a very technically astute person, and very much a
>> Linux supporter, and the software is pretty easy to install, but I still
>> have lots of problems with hardware configuration. Linux is going to
>> remain a minority operating system until they make hardware
>> configuration a lot easier.
>
> No, I don't need any warnings. I *know* this. :-)
How do you *know* this when you've never done an install before? Hmmm.
Do you just inherently believe the FUD that Micro$oft sends your way? ;-)
Honestly, I'd be surprised if you had any major hardware problems.
Having done a lot of Linux installs over years, unless a machine has
something really quirky about it, the install will more likely than not
just sail through and things will Just Work(TM). I have been really
amazed at how easy the installs have gotten and how automagic the
autodetection has become. If there's going to be hardware that doesn't
get configured just right, it will most likely be something along the
lines of a modem (specifically WinModems), sound card (specifically
sound cards built-in rather than being an actual card), or some
brand-spanking new device that doesn't yet have a driver. For the
machine you mentioned and what you're going to be doing with it, I'd be
really surprised if there is a problem in the install or autodetection.
> I also know that 75% of the IDL users who run
> Linux have their machines configured so that there
> is no hope they will ever understand the first thing
> about color in IDL, but that's another story, and one
> I hope to address if I ever get the damn OS installed. :-(
Huh? What's that all about? Color works fine. Back in the IDL 5.x
days, color wasn't so good. I needed to put the magic color commands in
my ~/.Xdefaults to resolve some color problems, but I haven't needed
that for a long time. I'm not sure when the problem was fixed, but I
know that I didn't need the work-around for IDL 6.0. Color works
exactly the same in Linux as it does in other operating systems.
-Mike
|
|
|
|
| Re: Linux Question [message #42560 is a reply to message #42559] |
Wed, 16 February 2005 12:00 |
James Kuyper
Messages: 425
Registered: March 2000
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Benjamin Hornberger wrote:
> James Kuyper wrote:
>
>>
>> I can't provide you with any comparisons; all of my installation
>> experience has been with RedHat Linux. However, I thought I should
>> give you a warning. I'm a very technically astute person, and very
>> much a Linux supporter, and the software is pretty easy to install,
>> but I still have lots of problems with hardware configuration. Linux
>> is going to remain a minority operating system until they make
>> hardware configuration a lot easier.
>
>
> I think in hardware configuration SUSE is better than Red Hat. By the
> way, by "they" you hopefully mean the hardware manufacturers. If they
> provided Linux drivers as they do provide Windows drivers, there would
> hardly be any problem...
For me it isn't the drivers that are a problem, it's the HOW-TOs. If
every piece of hardware came with (correct) Linux installation
instructions, it would be fine. However, in the absence of those
instructions, I've had to navigate an extremely confusing thicket of
HOW-TOs, most of which seem to be at least two releases out of date.
Even simply identifying the relevant HOW-TO file can be daunting.
There's also chat rooms and newsgroups where you can go for live advice,
but I've been turned off of those locations by the sheer volume of
messages I have to wade through, the literally overwhelming majority of
which have nothing to do with my particular question.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Linux Question [message #42563 is a reply to message #42562] |
Wed, 16 February 2005 11:07 |
KM
Messages: 29
Registered: October 2004
|
Junior Member |
|
|
On Wed, 16 Feb 2005, David Fanning wrote:
> Which flavor is the easiest to install for the, uh, less
> technically astute members of our esteemed organization? :-)
I've used RedHat, Gentoo, Debian, and Knoppix.
Knoppix is the easiest and best at hardware detection in my
experience. It is simply amazing what a Live CD can do. But I never
did a full install, I just booted off the Live CD. I think there is
a simple point-and-click option to move from a CD boot to a
hard-disk boot.
A fun trick is to take your Knoppix CD to a friends house and reboot
their computer to Linux when they are not looking. Then, say
"Oops... Did you need that othe OS?".
Of the other 3 I have done numerous full installs, and I vote for
Debian.
> P.S. I'll probably put it on an old DELL laptop I have around here
> and have been using as a doorstop.
Thats what I use. No, not a Dell, a doorstop. It has been so beat up
that it doesn't even have a screen anymore:
http://spacebit.dyndns.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/AboutThisSite
-k.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Linux Question [message #42564 is a reply to message #42563] |
Wed, 16 February 2005 10:44 |
David Fanning
Messages: 11724
Registered: August 2001
|
Senior Member |
|
|
James Kuyper writes:
> However, I thought I should give
> you a warning. I'm a very technically astute person, and very much a
> Linux supporter, and the software is pretty easy to install, but I still
> have lots of problems with hardware configuration. Linux is going to
> remain a minority operating system until they make hardware
> configuration a lot easier.
No, I don't need any warnings. I *know* this. :-)
I also know that 75% of the IDL users who run
Linux have their machines configured so that there
is no hope they will ever understand the first thing
about color in IDL, but that's another story, and one
I hope to address if I ever get the damn OS installed. :-(
Cheers,
David
--
David Fanning, Ph.D.
Fanning Software Consulting, Inc.
Coyote's Guide to IDL Programming: http://www.dfanning.com/
|
|
|
|
| Re: Linux Question [message #42565 is a reply to message #42564] |
Wed, 16 February 2005 10:31 |
James Kuyper
Messages: 425
Registered: March 2000
|
Senior Member |
|
|
David Fanning wrote:
> Ok, you Linux guys,
>
> I have to break down and install Linux so I can sort out some
> X Windows problems with my IDL widgets. Which flavor is the easiest
> to install for the, uh, less technically astute members of
> our esteemed organization? :-)
>
> Cheers,
>
> David
>
> P.S. I'll probably put it on an old DELL laptop I have
> around here and have been using as a doorstop.
I can't provide you with any comparisons; all of my installation
experience has been with RedHat Linux. However, I thought I should give
you a warning. I'm a very technically astute person, and very much a
Linux supporter, and the software is pretty easy to install, but I still
have lots of problems with hardware configuration. Linux is going to
remain a minority operating system until they make hardware
configuration a lot easier.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Linux Question [message #42640 is a reply to message #42558] |
Wed, 16 February 2005 19:50 |
mperrin+news
Messages: 81
Registered: May 2001
|
Member |
|
|
David Fanning <davidf@dfanning.com> wrote:
> I am always amazed with what people put up with,
> but this was really an eye-opening experience.
> I recommend *anyone* who writes software for a
> living go spend a couple of months with the end-users.
> You will never be the same. :-)
I feel that someone needs to stand up here and offer a valiant defense
of the astrophysics community, but I fear it's too late and we've
all already been irrevocably branded as hopeless luddites. :-)
I think part of the problem is that IDL ships with poor default settings
in many cases. It can be configured to do the right thing, if you know
how to tweak your .idlstartup file to add some DECOMPOSED and RETAIN
keywords, etc, but you shouldn't have to do that to get reasonable
functionality! I think many astronomers come to IDL with previous experience
with things like Matlab or Mathematica, where you *don't* need to do
that sort of tweaking. Window repaints work correctly in Mathematica
right away! So when faced with IDL windows that get permanently damaged
as soon as something passes in front of them, why isn't it reasonable to
assume that's "just how IDL is"?
That's not to say I disagree completely with the tone of this thread.
There *are* a lot of people who don't understand computing nearly as
well as perhaps they should; I'd love to see more computer emphasis
added to the undergraduate physics curriculum, but the invariable
faculty response is "but there's already too much material; what
courses should we drop if we add a computer requirement or two?"
Still, I think it needs to happen sooner or later. But I see a
distinction between fundamental issues of numerical data analysis
(e.g. representation of floating-point numbers, error propagation,
algorithms, and so on) versus details specific to some individual
piece of software (setting RETAIN=2 or knowing how to convert between
DATA and NORMALIZED coordinates, or whatever). One should strive to
minimize how much of the latter one needs to know, so that you can
concentrate on the former! In my opinion, something like imdisp or
tvimage should become *standard* with IDL: too many people out there
end up learning "tv" first and then getting stuck rolling their own
more useful display codes from scratch, and that's a waste...
On a regular basis, I program in IDL, C/C++, Perl, Tcl/Tk, various
shells, and Motorola DSP assembler (and occasionally I end up in
Python or Fortran too). That menagerie of languages is my problem, not
yours, but I hope you don't fault me for wanting to get the most
science done in IDL as possible with the minimum amount of screwing
around with configuration parameters or learning language esoterica!
(Same reason why I, and nearly every other astronomer I know, have
switched to Macs as much as possible: minimal need to screw around for
hours just to get things working!)
I'll go crawl back in my hole with the other end-users for a while
now and be quiet again. :-)
- Marshall
|
|
|
|
| Re: Linux Question [message #42646 is a reply to message #42552] |
Wed, 16 February 2005 15:35 |
Jonathan Greenberg
Messages: 91
Registered: November 2002
|
Member |
|
|
Yay! Those are the wonders of a license server tho -- how much is the
upgrade from standalone to license server? A lot less than a new license
I'm guessing...
--j
On 2/16/05 2:21 PM, in article MPG.1c7d75553b2ffa0a98991e@news.frii.com,
"David Fanning" <davidf@dfanning.com> wrote:
> Jonathan Greenberg writes:
>
>> Not to get a barrage of hate mails, but the easiest *nix which supports IDL
>> by far is MacOS X. Spend $500 and get the mac mini!
>
> There you go! Throw in the IDL license and you have
> a nice $3000 package! :-)
>
> Cheers,
>
> David
|
|
|
|
| Re: Linux Question [message #42647 is a reply to message #42550] |
Wed, 16 February 2005 15:28 |
Paul Van Delst[1]
Messages: 1157
Registered: April 2002
|
Senior Member |
|
|
David Fanning wrote:
> Paul Van Delst writes:
>
>
>> This problem reflects more on the lack of intuition/general intelligence of the end users
>> than linux.
>
>
> Oh, don't even get me started on this depressing topic.
>
> When I first started teaching IDL classes I estimated
> about a third of the people taking a class would probably
> not be successful using it. That number these days is
> considerably higher. Well over 50% it seems to me,
> and some days it seems much higher than that.
>
> It's not really a matter of intelligence. Most of the
> people in an IDL class have advanced degrees in physical
> sciences. It is something else, and I can't really put my
> finger on it. (I used to think it was because they were forced
> to use LINUX computers, but now I know better.) They
> don't understand programming at all. They don't really
> know what a variable is, they don't know how to type
> a program, they don't understand how windows work on
> their computers. Really basic stuff I would have thought
> you learned as a physical science undergraduate. But
> if so, they have forgotten a lot of it.
Ah, I know what you mean. When I first came ot the US ('93) I was amazed at the number of
graduate students (in science fields) that didn't know how computers worked and had never
programmed at all. How can that be?!? Bizarre. Didn't everybody learn about registers,
CPUs, ALUs, Math Coprocessors, etc. in their Experimental Methods classes?
Even now, I know people than can do fully polarimetric scattering and radiative transfer
calculations in their head but bugger me if they can understand floating point numbers (so
0.1 isn't really 0.1? Huh?) I thought everbody learned that stuff.
> It's not just ESO. It's every place I have been lately.
yeah, I know -- my comment was mostly mucking about (apologies to all the ESO folks that
read this newsgroup :o)
> It's what happens, frankly, when you start teaching
> intelligent design in science classes.
uh oh... watch it. If there's one Enlightenment idea that never made it across the pond,
that's it. All followups to talk.origins......
> Or maybe
> what happens when you let Computer Scientists
> teach computer programming classes, I'm not sure.
> But someone, somewhere is not getting the message
> across. And scientific programming is suffering
> because of it.
Maybe it's because writing code/getting results is *too* easy nowadays? (Thanks, IDL.
Sheesh. :o) And maybe the ease of writing code that produces copious amounts of data
contributes to the generation of errors too subtle to stand out?
Anyway.....
paulv
--
Paul van Delst
CIMSS @ NOAA/NCEP/EMC
|
|
|
|
| Re: Linux Question [message #42648 is a reply to message #42549] |
Wed, 16 February 2005 15:14 |
David Fanning
Messages: 11724
Registered: August 2001
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Christopher Lee writes:
> Anyway, my GUI frontend to the PSEUDO function is so much fun to play
> with, I hardly get any work done anymore.
I hear you, man. But I thought it was the PSYCHO function. :-)
Cheers,
David
--
David Fanning, Ph.D.
Fanning Software Consulting, Inc.
Coyote's Guide to IDL Programming: http://www.dfanning.com/
|
|
|
|
comp.lang.idl-pvwave archive
Members
Search
Help
Login
Home
