| Re: New IDLDE [message #52841] |
Fri, 09 March 2007 00:58  |
R.Bauer
Messages: 1424
Registered: November 1998
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Senior Member |
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Matt wrote:
> On Mar 8, 10:20 am, Kenneth Bowman <k-bow...@tamu.edu> wrote:
>
>> Is Eclipse in the future for IDL?
>>
>> There's a story at the Reg titled "Developers tell Eclipse why it sucks". ;-)
>
>
>
> Every time I hear IDL will be including eclipse in the next release I
> freak out about not being able to use emacs and idlwave anymore. Does
> anyone know if it will still be supported on linux?
>
> Matt
>
Hi Matt
it is planned to add it to the 7.0 release this year (at the end) not in
6.4.
From my point of view, I know eclipse with pydev on linux. And I do like
using some of it's tools for web2 applications. I do like vim and emacs
too.
People are different.
I like the idea to switch to a crossplatform ide instead of developing
an own poor environment which is not neat and which has much differences
between windows and linux platforms.
I would prefer more someone of us would have developed this like the
pydev people http://pydev.sourceforge.net/ so it would be open and
plugin extension would be easier, e.g. google/SOC. If itt maintain this
eclipse plugin the same way as they did it in the past with the idlde
environment then for long term usage we should better use emacs as ide
with the support of JD.
cheers
Reimar
--
Reimar Bauer
Institut fuer Stratosphaerische Chemie (ICG-1)
Forschungszentrum Juelich
email: R.Bauer@fz-juelich.de
------------------------------------------------------------ -------
a IDL library at ForschungsZentrum Juelich
http://www.fz-juelich.de/icg/icg-i/idl_icglib/idl_lib_intro. html
============================================================ =======
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| Re: New IDLDE [message #52851 is a reply to message #52850] |
Thu, 08 March 2007 13:10  |
Kenneth Bowman
Messages: 86
Registered: November 2006
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Member |
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In article <1173384248.331648.314040@q40g2000cwq.googlegroups.com>,
"mgalloy@gmail.com" <mgalloy@gmail.com> wrote:
> 1. Eclipse is complicated for new users. There are perspectives,
> views, editors, workspaces, projects, etc. and it is not intuitive (at
> least for me when I started) exactly what they are and how they
> interact. Everything is part of a project (which is part of a
> workspace), so what happens to the scientist who just wants to edit a
> single file, run the program, and discard it?
That would seem to fit with general trends, which I would describe
as moving IDL toward being more of a product for programmers, and
less of a product for scientists.
Ken
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| Re: New IDLDE [message #52853 is a reply to message #52851] |
Thu, 08 March 2007 12:31 |
Paul Van Delst[1]
Messages: 1157
Registered: April 2002
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Senior Member |
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mgalloy@gmail.com wrote:
> On Mar 8, 10:20 am, Kenneth Bowman <k-bow...@tamu.edu> wrote:
>> Is Eclipse in the future for IDL?
>>
>> There's a story at the Reg titled "Developers tell Eclipse why it sucks". ;-)
>>
>> http://www.regdeveloper.co.uk/2007/03/08/eclipse_sucks/
>>
>> Ken Bowman
>
> As someone who uses Eclipse regularly for development in other
> languages this brings up a couple competing issues for me:
>
> 1. Eclipse is complicated for new users. There are perspectives,
> views, editors, workspaces, projects, etc. and it is not intuitive (at
> least for me when I started) exactly what they are and how they
> interact. Everything is part of a project (which is part of a
> workspace), so what happens to the scientist who just wants to edit a
> single file, run the program, and discard it?
>
> 2. Eclipse is powerful for experienced users. But will it be difficult
> to take advantage of that because ITT VIS installs their own Eclipse
> and/or disables functionality (to streamline the process for new
> users) instead of using my system installed version?
>
> I'm hoping that the IDLDE can both be easy to use for beginners and
> play nice with other plugins for developers who want to use Eclipse
> beyond what ITT VIS provides (but I have my doubts).
I tried to use Eclipse with the Fortran (Photran) plugin. After about a day mucking about
I'm back to not using it. I achieve the same functionality with a good editor and
judicious environment variable declarations. I find GUI IDEs to be more of a hindrance
than a help.
cheers,
paulv
--
Paul van Delst Ride lots.
CIMSS @ NOAA/NCEP/EMC Eddy Merckx
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| Re: New IDLDE [message #52857 is a reply to message #52853] |
Thu, 08 March 2007 12:04 |
Michael Galloy
Messages: 1114
Registered: April 2006
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Senior Member |
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On Mar 8, 10:20 am, Kenneth Bowman <k-bow...@tamu.edu> wrote:
> Is Eclipse in the future for IDL?
>
> There's a story at the Reg titled "Developers tell Eclipse why it sucks". ;-)
>
> http://www.regdeveloper.co.uk/2007/03/08/eclipse_sucks/
>
> Ken Bowman
As someone who uses Eclipse regularly for development in other
languages this brings up a couple competing issues for me:
1. Eclipse is complicated for new users. There are perspectives,
views, editors, workspaces, projects, etc. and it is not intuitive (at
least for me when I started) exactly what they are and how they
interact. Everything is part of a project (which is part of a
workspace), so what happens to the scientist who just wants to edit a
single file, run the program, and discard it?
2. Eclipse is powerful for experienced users. But will it be difficult
to take advantage of that because ITT VIS installs their own Eclipse
and/or disables functionality (to streamline the process for new
users) instead of using my system installed version?
I'm hoping that the IDLDE can both be easy to use for beginners and
play nice with other plugins for developers who want to use Eclipse
beyond what ITT VIS provides (but I have my doubts).
Mike
--
www.michaelgalloy.com
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| Re: New IDLDE [message #52866 is a reply to message #52857] |
Thu, 08 March 2007 10:40 |
JD Smith
Messages: 850
Registered: December 1999
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Senior Member |
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On Thu, 08 Mar 2007 09:43:35 -0800, Matt wrote:
> On Mar 8, 10:20 am, Kenneth Bowman <k-bow...@tamu.edu> wrote:
>> Is Eclipse in the future for IDL?
>>
>> There's a story at the Reg titled "Developers tell Eclipse why it
>> sucks". ;-)
>
>
> Every time I hear IDL will be including eclipse in the next release I
> freak out about not being able to use emacs and idlwave anymore. Does
> anyone know if it will still be supported on linux?
IDLWAVE isn't going anywhere. If anything, ITTVIS has been far more
supportive of it over the last years. In fact, the fancy new help
interface, which allows you to pull up context help in the Assistant
from any IDL version starting with 6.1, is courtesy of the
idl_catalog.xml file now distributed with IDL, and built directly by
their documentation group. IDLWAVE parses this to learn system calling
syntax, location of help topics, etc. In the old days, we had to scan
PDF and HTML versions of their docs to discover this information,
using a giant and very difficult to maintain Perl script. Long time
IDLWAVE users might even remember the text-based help converted from
PDF, which we augmented by splicing in the "What's New" information
when v5.5 was released without updated documentation -- for a while,
IDLWAVE had the only up to date manuals for IDL!
There may be less motivation to use IDLWAVE for new users, given how
awful the current Motif IDLDE is, but I don't expect any other
changes.
Those of you looking to get started with IDLWAVE, I strong recommend
getting hold of a recent copy of Emacs 22 (still in pre-release, but
very stable and feature-packed). IDLWAVE is up to date and optimized
for this version. One could speculate Emacs 22 will be released in
the next months, but then again, it's been "months away" for several
years now...
JD
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| Re: New IDLDE [message #52873 is a reply to message #52866] |
Thu, 08 March 2007 09:53 |
Ben Panter
Messages: 102
Registered: July 2003
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Senior Member |
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Matt wrote:
> On Mar 8, 10:20 am, Kenneth Bowman <k-bow...@tamu.edu> wrote:
>> Is Eclipse in the future for IDL?
>>
>> There's a story at the Reg titled "Developers tell Eclipse why it sucks". ;-)
>
>
> Every time I hear IDL will be including eclipse in the next release I
> freak out about not being able to use emacs and idlwave anymore. Does
> anyone know if it will still be supported on linux?
Hi Matt,
As far as I understand it, JD Smith writes IDLWAVE and is independent
of ITTVS. All it needs is an idl rather than idlde interface, and nobody
has said *anything* about losing that. I suspect you're safe...
Cheers,
Ben
[As part a long-overdue toe-dipping exercise this morning I formatted a
buffer in IDLWAVE. My eyebrows were seen to raise. This could be the
start of a beautiful friendship...]
--
Ben Panter, Edinburgh, UK.
Email false, http://www.benpanter.co.uk
or you could try ben at ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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| Re: New IDLDE [message #52980 is a reply to message #52850] |
Fri, 09 March 2007 06:50 |
Kenneth Bowman
Messages: 86
Registered: November 2006
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Member |
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In article <MPG.205a348c332de2bd989ec2@news.frii.com>,
David Fanning <news@dfanning.com> wrote:
> Kenneth Bowman writes:
>
>> That would seem to fit with general trends, which I would describe
>> as moving IDL toward being more of a product for programmers, and
>> less of a product for scientists.
>
> Thank you. How come I can't be this eloquent!?
>
> Yes, this is *exactly* the trend, and *exactly* my fear.
> Pushed too far in this direction and IDL stops being what
> it is the very best at and becomes an also-ran in the
> programming language sweepstakes. It would be a shame if
> that happened.
I certainly don't object to ITT adding new features and capabilities to
IDL. It can be a great thing for us users. But, it is frustrating that
there is no investment in fixing problems with older pieces of IDL, like
direct graphics. And, many of the new tools seem to only be suitable for
use by "professional" programmers. (Which makes me an unprofessional
programmer, I guess.) I like to think that the next iteration of the
iTools will be much better documented and easier to program.
One of the capabilities of their new web site is the ability to
set up private forums, which they call "group portals". These are for
customers like Siemens and Raytheon, who develop large applications
with IDL. Clearly they need to take care of big customers like
medical imaging systems developers and the remote sensing
establishment, but to me that signals a permanent shift toward
large application development and away from the small- to medium-sized
data analysis project that has always been their forte, to my mind.
In fact, this sounds a lot like PV-WAVE.
Ken
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| Re: New IDLDE [message #53024 is a reply to message #52866] |
Tue, 13 March 2007 08:57 |
Mirko
Messages: 20
Registered: April 1999
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Junior Member |
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On Mar 8, 2:40 pm, JD Smith <jdsm...@as.arizona.edu> wrote:
> On Thu, 08 Mar 2007 09:43:35 -0800, Matt wrote:
>> On Mar 8, 10:20 am, Kenneth Bowman <k-bow...@tamu.edu> wrote:
>>> Is Eclipse in the future for IDL?
>
>>> There's a story at the Reg titled "Developers tell Eclipse why it
>>> sucks". ;-)
>
>> Every time I hear IDL will be including eclipse in the next release I
>> freak out about not being able to use emacs and idlwave anymore. Does
>> anyone know if it will still be supported on linux?
>
> IDLWAVE isn't going anywhere. If anything, ITTVIS has been far more
> supportive of it over the last years. In fact, the fancy new help
> interface, which allows you to pull up context help in the Assistant
> from any IDL version starting with 6.1, is courtesy of the
> idl_catalog.xml file now distributed with IDL, and built directly by
> their documentation group. IDLWAVE parses this to learn system calling
> syntax, location of help topics, etc. In the old days, we had to scan
> PDF and HTML versions of their docs to discover this information,
> using a giant and very difficult to maintain Perl script. Long time
> IDLWAVE users might even remember the text-based help converted from
> PDF, which we augmented by splicing in the "What's New" information
> when v5.5 was released without updated documentation -- for a while,
> IDLWAVE had the only up to date manuals for IDL!
>
> There may be less motivation to use IDLWAVE for new users, given how
> awful the current Motif IDLDE is, but I don't expect any other
> changes.
>
> Those of you looking to get started with IDLWAVE, I strong recommend
> getting hold of a recent copy of Emacs 22 (still in pre-release, but
> very stable and feature-packed). IDLWAVE is up to date and optimized
> for this version. One could speculate Emacs 22 will be released in
> the next months, but then again, it's been "months away" for several
> years now...
>
> JD
Windows users can find pre-compiled binaries of emacs-22 on the AucTeX
site ( http://www.gnu.org/software/auctex/download-for-windows.html)
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| Re: New IDLDE [message #53036 is a reply to message #52957] |
Mon, 12 March 2007 17:15 |
JD Smith
Messages: 850
Registered: December 1999
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Senior Member |
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On Sun, 11 Mar 2007 05:17:28 -0700, swingnut wrote:
> On Mar 9, 3:58 am, Reimar Bauer <R.Ba...@fz-juelich.de> wrote:
>> [quoted text muted]
> ...
>> [quoted text muted]
>
> Great. Not in time be useful, so looks like its Kate+IDL (in wine) or
> LiteEdit+IDL for the rest of my degree. Though the CVS support would
> be tempting, I need to learn that ... :-)
Plug for Emacs+IDLWAVE: typical editing session:
1. Edit, edit, edit.
2. Complete keywords with M-Tab, look up calling syntax with C-c ?,
investigate the curious divergence of DIMENSION keywords
and arguments among TOTAL/MEDIAN/etc. in the manual with M-?.
3. Review changes to last checked in version: C-x v =
4. Check in with CVS: C-x v v
5. Compose witty commit messages, commit with C-c C-c
Emacs has powerful hooks for lots of revision control systems, and
it's quite useful. Check the commit logs, look at who futzed with
what when, etc., all without leaving the browser. And yes, there are
menu items for all of these, until you learn the shortcuts.
JD
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