| Re: Two new IDL Help Articles describing how to use the Workbench are made available now. [message #82300] |
Thu, 06 December 2012 10:54 |
santorofer
Messages: 14
Registered: July 2008
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Junior Member |
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On Wednesday, December 5, 2012 12:09:10 PM UTC-7, David Fanning wrote:
> The problem is that the "why" question is not answered
> in the articles. Why, for example, would someone want to
> create a project? (My answer is, you don't, but maybe
> yours would be different.) Still, I would explain why
> I couldn't live without the Project Explorer, and why
> it is a great idea to put your files in there, even
> if you DON'T want them in your Workspace location.
Thank you very much David for your feedback.
There are several "Why" questions in your post and I was wondering if other users in this thread also think that those "why" questions should be addressed somewhere else? I can see that some of them are already being discussed here.
Thank you everybody for your feedback on those two articles!.
Cheers!,
Fernando
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| Re: Two new IDL Help Articles describing how to use the Workbench are made available now. [message #82302 is a reply to message #82300] |
Thu, 06 December 2012 10:18  |
wlandsman
Messages: 743
Registered: June 2000
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Senior Member |
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OK thanks, got it working. I feel a little bit like I did in 1993 (an old-timer story) when I was shown this new thing called the World Wide Web. I thought it would never catch on because the toolbar didn't provide enough navigation capability. I didn't realize that there were links embedded in the displayed page itself that one could click on! --Wayne
On Thursday, December 6, 2012 12:12:12 PM UTC-5, David Fanning wrote:
> David Fanning writes:
>
> Generally speaking, if you want to create a "new" window,
>
> you grab an existing window and drag it to the edge of
>
> the workbench or current window, where an outline appears.
>
>
>
> Fool around with it for a half-hour or so, until you get
>
> the hang of it. Eventually, you can get the windows where
>
> you want them. Don't forget where the Reset Views button is! ;-)
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> David
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> David Fanning, Ph.D.
>
> Fanning Software Consulting, Inc.
>
> Coyote's Guide to IDL Programming: http://www.dfanning.com/
>
> Sepore ma de ni thue. ("Perhaps thou speakest truth.")
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| Re: Two new IDL Help Articles describing how to use the Workbench are made available now. [message #82304 is a reply to message #82302] |
Thu, 06 December 2012 10:11 |
lecacheux.alain
Messages: 325
Registered: January 2008
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Senior Member |
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Le jeudi 6 décembre 2012 18:42:20 UTC+1, David Fanning a écrit :
> Fab writes:
>
>
>
>> As a recent IDL user and linux fan I cannot comment on IDL 6.4. But I
>
>> agree that the workbench is heavy, and I found the IDL7* workbench more
>
>> stable and more effective than IDL8*.
>
>> However, I am using SVN on a regular (daily? hourly?) basis and would
>
>> not want to use an external tool than the eclipse workbench for it, this
>
>> would be too tiring.
>
>
>
> I use TortoiseSVN on my Windows machines (outside the Workbench)
>
> and I love it. (I just use the already existing SVN client on my
>
> LINUX machines.) I don't find it tiring. What I do find tiring
>
> is carping at people to update their Coyote Library once in
>
> awhile on their own machines. :-)
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> David
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> David Fanning, Ph.D.
>
> Fanning Software Consulting, Inc.
>
> Coyote's Guide to IDL Programming: http://www.dfanning.com/
>
> Sepore ma de ni thue. ("Perhaps thou speakest truth.")
David and Fabien,
I certainly do not want to go back to 6.4 ! The IDL Workbench is there and we must now use it.
I would find it quite usable, when Exelis will have i) improved the corresponding documentation (the new articles which are the subject of this thread are a promising step in this direction), ii) fixed the unstable behaviour of the Workbench while debugging or restarting from error. This unstability may lead, - as already mentioned in previous threads -, to a full reset or even a cold restart of IDL with, of course, the penality of some editing or data loss.
That is, in my opinion, more important than SVN capability or any other gadget.
alain.
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| Re: Two new IDL Help Articles describing how to use the Workbench are made available now. [message #82305 is a reply to message #82304] |
Thu, 06 December 2012 09:42 |
David Fanning
Messages: 11724
Registered: August 2001
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Senior Member |
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Fab writes:
> As a recent IDL user and linux fan I cannot comment on IDL 6.4. But I
> agree that the workbench is heavy, and I found the IDL7* workbench more
> stable and more effective than IDL8*.
> However, I am using SVN on a regular (daily? hourly?) basis and would
> not want to use an external tool than the eclipse workbench for it, this
> would be too tiring.
I use TortoiseSVN on my Windows machines (outside the Workbench)
and I love it. (I just use the already existing SVN client on my
LINUX machines.) I don't find it tiring. What I do find tiring
is carping at people to update their Coyote Library once in
awhile on their own machines. :-)
Cheers,
David
--
David Fanning, Ph.D.
Fanning Software Consulting, Inc.
Coyote's Guide to IDL Programming: http://www.dfanning.com/
Sepore ma de ni thue. ("Perhaps thou speakest truth.")
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| Re: Two new IDL Help Articles describing how to use the Workbench are made available now. [message #82306 is a reply to message #82305] |
Thu, 06 December 2012 09:26 |
Fabzi
Messages: 305
Registered: July 2010
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Senior Member |
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Hi Alain,
As a recent IDL user and linux fan I cannot comment on IDL 6.4. But I
agree that the workbench is heavy, and I found the IDL7* workbench more
stable and more effective than IDL8*.
However, I am using SVN on a regular (daily? hourly?) basis and would
not want to use an external tool than the eclipse workbench for it, this
would be too tiring.
Fabien
On 12/06/2012 06:11 PM, alx wrote:
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| Re: Two new IDL Help Articles describing how to use the Workbench are made available now. [message #82307 is a reply to message #82306] |
Thu, 06 December 2012 09:17 |
David Fanning
Messages: 11724
Registered: August 2001
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Senior Member |
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alx writes:
> I agree with David Fanning that the IDL Workbench, starting from v7, was not a good idea, as far as you were using IDL on Windows.
I'm not sure I said exactly that, although I do agree
that for most of my needs the IDL 6.4 Workbench was
nearly perfect. It was certainly stable and it did
most of what I needed it to do.
But, I really don't mind the newer Eclipse Workbench.
And I LOVE that I can work on LINUX machines and feel
completely and utterly comfortable in IDL. *That* didn't
used to happen!
Of course, if it worked properly, it would be an
advantage. I still often work in IDL 7 for this
very reason. But, I guess 6.4 is in the distant past.
Cheers,
David
--
David Fanning, Ph.D.
Fanning Software Consulting, Inc.
Coyote's Guide to IDL Programming: http://www.dfanning.com/
Sepore ma de ni thue. ("Perhaps thou speakest truth.")
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| Re: Two new IDL Help Articles describing how to use the Workbench are made available now. [message #82308 is a reply to message #82307] |
Thu, 06 December 2012 09:12 |
David Fanning
Messages: 11724
Registered: August 2001
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Senior Member |
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David Fanning writes:
> By the way, to change the order of multiple views in a window,
> just drag the tab of the view where you want it. The order in
> the window will be updated automatically.
Generally speaking, if you want to create a "new" window,
you grab an existing window and drag it to the edge of
the workbench or current window, where an outline appears.
Fool around with it for a half-hour or so, until you get
the hang of it. Eventually, you can get the windows where
you want them. Don't forget where the Reset Views button is! ;-)
Cheers,
David
--
David Fanning, Ph.D.
Fanning Software Consulting, Inc.
Coyote's Guide to IDL Programming: http://www.dfanning.com/
Sepore ma de ni thue. ("Perhaps thou speakest truth.")
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| Re: Two new IDL Help Articles describing how to use the Workbench are made available now. [message #82309 is a reply to message #82308] |
Thu, 06 December 2012 09:11 |
lecacheux.alain
Messages: 325
Registered: January 2008
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Senior Member |
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Le mercredi 5 décembre 2012 18:28:21 UTC+1, santo...@gmail.com a écrit :
> David Starbuck and myself (Fernando Santoro) have put together two new Help Articles that describe the IDL Workbench.
>
>
>
> The first article is called "IDL Workbench Guide" and it's based the Workbench chapter of Mark Piper's "Introduction to IDL" course manual. The Help Article also expands on it by adding some new sections and external links, including our YouTube videos. Please, take a look at it here:
>
>
>
> http://www.exelisvis.com/Support/HelpArticleDetail/ArticleId /5300.aspx
>
>
>
> The second article is a reference guide called "IDL 8 Workbench Reference". This article provides a description of the menus and views that form the Workbench that users can reference. Please take a look at it here:
>
>
>
> http://www.exelisvis.com/Support/HelpArticleDetail/ArticleId /5295.aspx
>
>
>
> We hope you will find these articles helpful!
>
> Fernando
I agree with David Fanning that the IDL Workbench, starting from v7, was not a good idea, as far as you were using IDL on Windows.
Indeed, the v6.4 IDLDE was nearly perfect, because it was a complete and robust EDI, already allowing debugging, project building and profiling. In the same time, it was adapted to simple interactive calculation as well as to build complex programs. The present Workbench, even in v2.8.1, is very heavy, very slow to launch, and even unstable regarding debugger usage. The only plus is SVN (but who is, regularly, really needing it ?). I understand that ITT/Exelis choose Eclipse in order to avoid a new development in giving a decent EDI to Linux and MacOS users. Maybe a bad choice, in any case for Windows users.
alain.
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| Re: Two new IDL Help Articles describing how to use the Workbench are made available now. [message #82310 is a reply to message #82309] |
Thu, 06 December 2012 09:01 |
David Fanning
Messages: 11724
Registered: August 2001
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Senior Member |
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David Fanning writes:
> Who cares? If you don't like where it goes, just drag it
> somewhere else by grabbing its tab and moving it. This is,
> I have to admit, the best part of the Workbench, although
> it took me most of a day to figure out how the whole thing
> works!
By the way, to change the order of multiple views in a window,
just drag the tab of the view where you want it. The order in
the window will be updated automatically.
Cheers,
David
--
David Fanning, Ph.D.
Fanning Software Consulting, Inc.
Coyote's Guide to IDL Programming: http://www.dfanning.com/
Sepore ma de ni thue. ("Perhaps thou speakest truth.")
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| Re: Two new IDL Help Articles describing how to use the Workbench are made available now. [message #82311 is a reply to message #82310] |
Thu, 06 December 2012 08:57 |
David Fanning
Messages: 11724
Registered: August 2001
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Senior Member |
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Wayne writes:
> Thanks for posting this. I was about to suggest more documentation for the Workbench.
>
> I am a big fan of the workbench (especially working
> with Subversion) but I have to admit that I am still
> clueless about window management. How does one create a new window?
Window menu -> Show View -> Other, etc. etc. They are
scattered around a bit randomly. :-)
> When one selects a view, which window does it go into?
Who cares? If you don't like where it goes, just drag it
somewhere else by grabbing its tab and moving it. This is,
I have to admit, the best part of the Workbench, although
it took me most of a day to figure out how the whole thing
works!
> For example, I seem to only be able to have the IDL console
> in the bottom right of my four windows.
Click the Console tab and drag it up and drop it on the Project
Explored Tab. Now you have it somewhere else! The only place you
can't put it, probably, is in the Editor window.
> Can one have two files open at the same time?
Open two files in the text editor. Then click on the tab of one
and drag it over the the right-hand edge of the Editor window. You
will see an outline. When you release it, you will have two files
open in the Editor window at the same time.
> If so, with which file is the outline window associated?
The one that is the "current" one in the Editor window.
> Fortunately, whenever I screw up the windows I know I can
> hit the "Reset Views" button to get me back to my four windows.
This has saved untold numbers of people who try to use key combinations
and accidentally delete their Console window! ;-)
Cheers,
David
--
David Fanning, Ph.D.
Fanning Software Consulting, Inc.
Coyote's Guide to IDL Programming: http://www.dfanning.com/
Sepore ma de ni thue. ("Perhaps thou speakest truth.")
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| Re: Two new IDL Help Articles describing how to use the Workbench are made available now. [message #82312 is a reply to message #82311] |
Thu, 06 December 2012 08:45 |
wlandsman
Messages: 743
Registered: June 2000
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Senior Member |
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Thanks for posting this. I was about to suggest more documentation for the Workbench.
I am a big fan of the workbench (especially working with Subversion) but I have to admit that I am still clueless about window management. How does one create a new window? When one selects a view, which window does it go into? For example, I seem to only be able to have the IDL console in the bottom right of my four windows. Can one have two files open at the same time? If so, with which file is the outline window associated? Fortunately, whenever I screw up the windows I know I can hit the "Reset Views" button to get me back to my four windows.
On Wednesday, December 5, 2012 12:28:21 PM UTC-5, santo...@gmail.com wrote:
> David Starbuck and myself (Fernando Santoro) have put together two new Help Articles that describe the IDL Workbench.
>
>
>
> The first article is called "IDL Workbench Guide" and it's based the Workbench chapter of Mark Piper's "Introduction to IDL" course manual. The Help Article also expands on it by adding some new sections and external links, including our YouTube videos. Please, take a look at it here:
>
>
>
> http://www.exelisvis.com/Support/HelpArticleDetail/ArticleId /5300.aspx
>
>
>
> The second article is a reference guide called "IDL 8 Workbench Reference". This article provides a description of the menus and views that form the Workbench that users can reference. Please take a look at it here:
>
>
>
> http://www.exelisvis.com/Support/HelpArticleDetail/ArticleId /5295.aspx
>
>
>
> We hope you will find these articles helpful!
>
> Fernando
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| Re: Two new IDL Help Articles describing how to use the Workbench are made available now. [message #82313 is a reply to message #82312] |
Thu, 06 December 2012 08:43 |
David Fanning
Messages: 11724
Registered: August 2001
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Senior Member |
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Fab writes:
> I started IDL with IDL7, after working one year with Java and Eclipse,
> so I don't know how IDL looked like before. Therefore, I really have no
> clue about the issues you are raising here. I am not saying the
> workbench is perfect (see my recent post about unstable behavior and
> esthetic consideration). But I don't understand what you mean with the
> advantages of having code somewhere else than in the workbench, etc.
> Unlike you, I also have no problem with the concept of "project", even
> more when the "project" is a team-development managed with SVN. Can you
> explain what you mean here?
First, a lot of people are under the mistaken assumption that to work
with the Workbench they need to move all their IDL program files
into the Workspace directory. They don't. You can add files to
the Workbench from wherever they happen to be on your computer.
In other words, you don't have to change anything about your
current file directory structure. This is not obvious to many
people.
Second, many people assume that if they create a project in
the Project Explorer window that it is necessary to "Build"
the project in order to use the code there. I don't think I
have ever "built" a project in my life, except to explore
how disastrous it can be to understanding what the hell is
going on in IDL! By "building" a project, you create an IDL
save file with all the compiled project code. Then, good luck
trying to make a change in one of your project files. Having
save files in your program directories is one of the best ways
I know to drive yourself completely insane. :-)
Cheers,
David
--
David Fanning, Ph.D.
Fanning Software Consulting, Inc.
Coyote's Guide to IDL Programming: http://www.dfanning.com/
Sepore ma de ni thue. ("Perhaps thou speakest truth.")
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| Re: Two new IDL Help Articles describing how to use the Workbench are made available now. [message #82314 is a reply to message #82313] |
Thu, 06 December 2012 08:32 |
Fabzi
Messages: 305
Registered: July 2010
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Senior Member |
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Hi David,
On 12/05/2012 08:09 PM, David Fanning wrote:
> The problem is that the "why" question is not answered
> in the articles. Why, for example, would someone want to
> create a project? (My answer is, you don't, but maybe
> yours would be different.) Still, I would explain why
> I couldn't live without the Project Explorer, and why
> it is a great idea to put your files in there, even
> if you DON'T want them in your Workspace location.
> I would definitely explain why you don't have to put
> all your files in the Workspace location and why it
> is probably a good idea NOT to do that.
I started IDL with IDL7, after working one year with Java and Eclipse,
so I don't know how IDL looked like before. Therefore, I really have no
clue about the issues you are raising here. I am not saying the
workbench is perfect (see my recent post about unstable behavior and
esthetic consideration). But I don't understand what you mean with the
advantages of having code somewhere else than in the workbench, etc.
Unlike you, I also have no problem with the concept of "project", even
more when the "project" is a team-development managed with SVN. Can you
explain what you mean here?
Thanks,
Fabien
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| Re: Two new IDL Help Articles describing how to use the Workbench are made available now. [message #82322 is a reply to message #82314] |
Wed, 05 December 2012 11:20 |
David Fanning
Messages: 11724
Registered: August 2001
|
Senior Member |
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David Fanning writes:
>
> santorofer@gmail.com writes:
>
>>
>> David Starbuck and myself (Fernando Santoro) have put together two new Help Articles that describe the IDL Workbench.
>>
>> The first article is called "IDL Workbench Guide" and it's based the Workbench chapter of Mark Piper's "Introduction to IDL" course manual. The Help Article also expands on it by adding some new sections and external links, including our YouTube videos. Please, take a look at it here:
>>
>> http://www.exelisvis.com/Support/HelpArticleDetail/ArticleId /5300.aspx
>>
>> The second article is a reference guide called "IDL 8 Workbench Reference". This article provides a description of the menus and views that form the Workbench that users can reference. Please take a look at it here:
>>
>> http://www.exelisvis.com/Support/HelpArticleDetail/ArticleId /5295.aspx
>>
>> We hope you will find these articles helpful!
>
> I am absolutely sure some users will find these articles
> helpful. I am also sure (if you will permit some gentle
> criticism here) that users who are confused about the
> Workbench will not find much here to dispel that
> confusion.
P.S. In the Workbench article I would write, I would also
explain why having IDL manage your IDL path for you according
to the projects you open is a recipe for disaster. But, I
have heard there are people who think otherwise. I'd be
most interested in why they think that.
Cheers,
David
--
David Fanning, Ph.D.
Fanning Software Consulting, Inc.
Coyote's Guide to IDL Programming: http://www.dfanning.com/
Sepore ma de ni thue. ("Perhaps thou speakest truth.")
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| Re: Two new IDL Help Articles describing how to use the Workbench are made available now. [message #82323 is a reply to message #82322] |
Wed, 05 December 2012 11:09 |
David Fanning
Messages: 11724
Registered: August 2001
|
Senior Member |
|
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santorofer@gmail.com writes:
>
> David Starbuck and myself (Fernando Santoro) have put together two new Help Articles that describe the IDL Workbench.
>
> The first article is called "IDL Workbench Guide" and it's based the Workbench chapter of Mark Piper's "Introduction to IDL" course manual. The Help Article also expands on it by adding some new sections and external links, including our YouTube videos. Please, take a look at it here:
>
> http://www.exelisvis.com/Support/HelpArticleDetail/ArticleId /5300.aspx
>
> The second article is a reference guide called "IDL 8 Workbench Reference". This article provides a description of the menus and views that form the Workbench that users can reference. Please take a look at it here:
>
> http://www.exelisvis.com/Support/HelpArticleDetail/ArticleId /5295.aspx
>
> We hope you will find these articles helpful!
I am absolutely sure some users will find these articles
helpful. I am also sure (if you will permit some gentle
criticism here) that users who are confused about the
Workbench will not find much here to dispel that
confusion.
The problem is that the "why" question is not answered
in the articles. Why, for example, would someone want to
create a project? (My answer is, you don't, but maybe
yours would be different.) Still, I would explain why
I couldn't live without the Project Explorer, and why
it is a great idea to put your files in there, even
if you DON'T want them in your Workspace location.
I would definitely explain why you don't have to put
all your files in the Workspace location and why it
is probably a good idea NOT to do that.
I would explain why when you look at the Workbench of
someone who works often with IDL you see maybe a third
of the windows that come up in the Workbench's default
configuration. I would explain why some windows are
essential and why some appear to be put there just to
take up real-estate. I would explain which ones
are essential, and which ones can be hidden away until
that one time in 10,000 when you might actually need
them.
I guess what I am saying is that these articles explain
the Workbench from a "company's" perspective. What most
users need is the Workbench explained from a "users"
perspective. And, maybe several users perspectives.
Goodness knows we are not all alike. But, what I would
like to know is how YOU use the Workbench. That would
be valuable to me, and probably to a lot of users like
me.
Cheers,
David
--
David Fanning, Ph.D.
Fanning Software Consulting, Inc.
Coyote's Guide to IDL Programming: http://www.dfanning.com/
Sepore ma de ni thue. ("Perhaps thou speakest truth.")
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